Teach me about suspension

[Gobert]

Just now, CRM said:

I have really enjoyed it Andy. With the baffles fitted its transformed the bike for the better, it fuels better, doesn't hurt my ears and you can rag it without feeling guilty (i like stealthy bikes)
Its comfy and easy to ride. 
Mrs CRM quite likes it too - as much as the CBR ? perhaps but she found the exhaust fatiguing so with the baffles in i am sure she will enjoy it more.
It's seriously fucking heavy though. far heavier than i expected and remembered. 

and it has an upright riding position - on the sporty side - which just works on the road. It's the reason I've fitted the adjustable clipons to the BM.

[dansp1]

14 minutes ago, David W said:

You can’t beat having someone that really knows the topic. I told KTech my weight, how and where I ride, etc when I ordered my forks and shock. Spoke to the Suspension guy at Oulton and he said there’s no point taking money off me because the base setting will be as good as he’d probably get it!

and thats the point, a good base setting is the starting point, but with quality suspenders a click here and there can make a big difference and once you have a grasp of what does what its not so difficult to get a perfect set up for you, and that is all thats important

[Gobert]

3 minutes ago, dansp1 said:

and thats the point, a good base setting is the starting point, but with quality suspenders a click here and there can make a big difference and once you have a grasp of what does what its not so difficult to get a perfect set up for you, and that is all thats important

A decent test route with a bit of time and knowledge has worked for me in the past - a bit of trial and error in the real world really helps.

On track I've always found using the suspension man the way forward as track time and tyres are too expensive to waste. 

[lorenzo]

19 hours ago, Gobert said:

A decent test route with a bit of time and knowledge has worked for me in the past - a bit of trial and error in the real world really helps.

On track I've always found using the suspension man the way forward as track time and tyres are too expensive to waste. 

Depends on who you get as well though. I don't remember the name of the firm he worked for but there a feller called Stef who I once used and he was excellent, as good a £50 as I've ever spent on a bike.

[Gobert23]

'Boingy bits' are actually pretty simple...

If you can understand a spring and you can get your head around a valve (more / less flow), then you're more than half-way there.

[Gobert]

10 minutes ago, Gobert23 said:

'Boingy bits' are actually pretty simple...

If you can understand a spring and you can get your head around a valve (more / less flow), then you're more than half-way there.

As you say, understanding how suspension works is quite simple.............understanding what's causing the "issues" you have is something totally different...............is it the front?, is it the back?, is it the tyres?, is it geometry?, is it the wheelbase?, springs?, oil gap? etc, etc. Small changes in all of these can totally change how a bike feels.

Following advice from people that knew what's what, I did minor changes to the wheelbase, front air gap and geometry on my BM which totally changed how the bike steered/turned/felt - I doubt I'd ever have got to that position without advice from professionals.

[Gobert]

What I should have also have said was that once you have a basic setting that works, that's when you can try things with no downside as you can always go back to a known starting point.

[Damnthistinleg]

@CRM

It's been touched upon but I haven't seen any definitive answer from you on springs. What spring rates are you running and are you running broadly the same rates in all of your bikes? Are they still on the standard boingys?

Suspension in its purest form is very easy to understand and it's just the last minutiae that seem to cloud the whole picture for most people, with far too much emphasis being placed on the importance of damping as a way of curing ills. You've really got to start with the basics before spending any money on either bits or professional assistance (although they will point to the springs first anyway) and that means looking at the springs and whether they suit you as a 'mass' and as a rider.

I think it's fair to say that in a few of your bikes and especially the fancy ones, your personal mass may not have been the benchmark for their calculations. If you're still running the standard springs which are not only too light but also quite old, that really has to be your starting point.

In the main, you will probably find that with the correct spring rates fitted and a thorough overhaul with new bushes, good quality oil and new seals, you will not only have a bike whose suspension is now working in the geometrical envelope that was intended, you will also have a very good starting point from which to understand what the damping adjustments do and why.

The fundamental point to remember is that the springs are the real basis of your suspension and the damping is merely just a method of controlling the oscillation (and to some degree the initial reaction) of the springs.

I think the other thing to bear in mind is that different bikes will give differing 'feeling' for many reasons so there's not too much point in comparing apples with oranges while looking at the suspension in isolation. It's much better to treat each bike as an individual with its original purpose very much in mind.

Do one bike at a time.

 

[2639]

CRM, this thread you started has... to date... a very high quality of information and pragmatism in it. I write that as you, the suspension novice, are susceptible to being mislead by well meaning bollocks / or sometimes in the odd world of club level MotoGP, information designed to confuse and hinder. It's all stayed on topic, and positive, no one got distracted by doing dispicable things to your dog...

"The fundamental point to remember is that the springs are the real basis of your suspension and the damping is merely just a method of controlling the oscillation (and to some degree the initial reaction) of the springs".

What 'Tinleg has written there is, for me, absolutely spot on. Took me bloomin' years to have this revealed. And that was after reading stuff and quizzing those faster than I at the time. I have spent a long time watching people bounce and or push bikes down in the paddock and diagnose stuff, and just ended up in 2 fold wonderment... how on earth could they detect anything meaningful, and if I am so bad at sensing these 'obvious' suspension traits, how am I faster than they are. So I fully understand the feelings of confusion when thinking about suspension.

The only bit that collectivly we might have missed is this. I suspect you do not completely want a 'fixed' or improved bike as much as you would like to be self sufficient in improving it yourself. To this end I have a slightly daft suggestion. Making vehicles better, for me, is often a bit elusive / hard to define. Sensing a change is one thing. Gauging how much to go, how far is too much is also quite time consuming. So time consuming you can lose the thread of where your going. So the suggestion is to make the suspension worse. From a known setting of half-decent, middle ground. And at the repeatable venue of a PB track day. You seem to be pretty good at identifying traits that this would not be a waste of time. So identify a 'something' and (deliberatly) exacerbate the problem.

I know that sounds a bit backwards. But... unless your rattling around with both tyres slithering its hard to work out how much better an improvement is. Slithering tyres being a maximum limit of traction. But 'worse' is easy to feel and often quantify. And we learn by our mistakes. For me, going the 'wrong way' is often helpful if I am lost with where I am at suspension wise.

-------

Perhaps to reiterate the springs comment.

This will over complicate things CRM, but isn't intended to. Thinki of it as a recount of how knowledge developed for me. I love my R1. Its ancient now, but that much work has gone into making more than the sum of its parts. One year it has had 11 different spring rate changes. Be aware its not one spring rate per end. The front has 4 or 5 springs in it. The tyre has a natural spring in its primary material, and some carcasses are designed with a 'pre-tension' to return the contact patch to normal quicker than others. The air inside the tyre is a spring without a damper, and clearly it runs at different temperatures and pressures. The forks have one spring per leg. The rate can be changed obviously, but making a spring rate from the average of two different [different in either leg] rates also improved my bike. The fork oil is necessary, we'll stay away from what weight as that is a story for a different day, suffice to say the fork is not full. And the air above the nominal level is also a spring because as the lowers compress the volume inside decreases; so changing the air gap also lead to marked improvements.

By 'improvement' I mean a certainty of feedback. Or a strength of resistance being fed back through the bars, of being sure the tyre was biting into the ground solidly. Of the clarity of communication when that strong, solid biting feeling began to diminish, and how that felt eg a slow fade or a digital sort of hiccup, like a record player needle jumping and so silence of feedback. Each improvement lead to increased time on the other things of riding, because of this surety of feedback.

So why write about all these springs operating in conjunction? The only way I have been able to explore sampling all of this is because I was helped with getting the springing ballpark right in the first place. And was then able to learn, try then suggest things.

The last bit is it also improved my know-when-to-stop valve. I raced Schleiz last year on the R1. But it had stock forks and springs in due to a bump damaging the posh ones. Knowing what good feedback should feel like was very useful when a floating feeling became an limit - direction and speed ok, but trust and surety through the bars all gone - through a corner called Seng, very long left right left I reached the limit of damping improvements v available time/resources/energy. With a bit of luck any time and money spent learning suspension will have rewards in making mistakes that result in crashes less frequent.

Anyway, enough. It's late.

Andy.

 

[Gobert]

7 hours ago, 2639 said:

I know that sounds a bit backwards. But... unless your rattling around with both tyres slithering its hard to work out how much better an improvement is. Slithering tyres being a maximum limit of traction. But 'worse' is easy to feel and often quantify. And we learn by our mistakes. For me, going the 'wrong way' is often helpful if I am lost with where I am at suspension wise.

 

As you say, trying something and it feeling worse right away is something I take as a positive as you know that's not the way to go.

Again totally agree with you and DTTL on the springs - getting the sag right is the first thing I look at. I'm using my S1000RR road bike on track at the moment and they are known for having an oversprung front end that doesn't let you get anywhere near the right sag settings. A simple change of springs and an increase in the air gap totally changed the way the bike steered / felt.

[couchcommando]

I always set my own bikes up and they feel good to me, on the few times I've gone to get help they have never been more than a click away from the professionals. The only way I learnt was to ride and adjust and see how it behaved, as well as reading lots and listening when I did get help.

When you describe the RC as sitting low when you get on it and then also say it feels planted those two go hand in hand so it all makes sense. My NC30 was the same tbh. I'll be interested to see what Maxton say but can assume they will want stiffer springs front and rear as a start. When we're free go and spend an hour on a favourite set of bends and take a screwdriver and alter setting a click or two and then ride. It's a good way to get some education on suspension

[Mark/Foggy]

I'd like to jump in here with a way of explaining that has helped me educate and also analyse what people want from their bike.

The springs are all its about really, you need springs that can carry the weight of the bike and yourself. Standard base park settings should be to measure static sag in those springs with the preload about half way in it's adjustment. With you on the bike you want about 25mm at the front and 15 at the rear. If you can't get this, you may need to change the springs.

What you actually want from the bike is to be level mid corner, mid apex, just at that point when you will open the throttle. You want it to be balanced on the springs and feeling flat. This gives you a good sense of confidence, it will feel natural. Those springs are working to support the weight and if you find a bump, you will have something left over to deal with it.

Those damping adjusters are more about how you get there and how it settles into that position. They control the speed of the suspension travel. 

Let's think about the front, which is normally that makes you feel most nervous, if it dives too low and it feels like it wants to tuck under you, it has moved too fast, if it won't turn in maybe it moved too slow...This is damping, compression damping.

This should help you get to the apex and let the springs do the work.

Now you are trying to steer out of the corner, if it keeps trying to turn, the front is too low and is trying to pull you further into the corner, this is too much rebound damping, the front is slow reacting to the fact that you are trying to accelerate away. If it feels like the front wants to get away from you as you open the throttle,maybe it has popped up too early and you have not enough rebound damping.

The rear is more difficult to feel and go in the right direction. This is much more about when and where you are using the engine into and out of the apex of that corner.

I would suggest that you think about the front first. If you think about the front, you will start to understand what the back is doing.

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Mark/Foggy

[CRM]

This is why i love this place - some seriously clever people and some who really go out of their way to help others.

All the above is good to read, knowing where to start though

On 5/3/2020 at 4:44 PM, Damnthistinleg said:

@CRM

It's been touched upon but I haven't seen any definitive answer from you on springs. What spring rates are you running and are you running broadly the same rates in all of your bikes? Are they still on the standard boingys?

So on RC#1 the front i think has hyperpro springs and were refreshed around 12 years ago fluids and seals wise. I have always liked the feel from the front of #1 and the flopping into corners i felt was a by product of a soft arse end
Now the rear is a standard shock that was rebuilt around 12 years ago at maxton and it wears a maxton spring. 12 years ago i was a bit lighter. I think its gone saggy though without trying to dodge blame here and the ride height converter set too high to compensate for too much "sag" i think i got that bit right. 

RC#2 is fairly new to me and while on standard wheels both ends have been reworked and feel far stiffer compared to #1
My biggest complaint with #2 is when getting a bit of a lean on it feels to step out a bit but like i say i think this is me and fucking wanky dunlops.

One at a time makes much sense, do one and try and get the rest to feel similar.

On 5/4/2020 at 12:48 AM, 2639 said:

The only bit that collectivly we might have missed is this. I suspect you do not completely want a 'fixed' or improved bike as much as you would like to be self sufficient in improving it yourself. To this end I have a slightly daft suggestion. Making vehicles better, for me, is often a bit elusive / hard to define. Sensing a change is one thing. Gauging how much to go, how far is too much is also quite time consuming. So time consuming you can lose the thread of where your going. So the suggestion is to make the suspension worse. From a known setting of half-decent, middle ground. And at the repeatable venue of a PB track day. You seem to be pretty good at identifying traits that this would not be a waste of time. So identify a 'something' and (deliberatly) exacerbate the problem.

Correct. My use is 90% road and i am a fairly conservative rider that takes little risk. i know how far i can lean with warm tyres and while i am sure there is more to go, i know where i am comfortable.
Being able to translate what i feel to someone who understands what i mean and how to address and make it feel better.
When RC#1 comes back from Maxton i will commute on it again a few times and see how it feels to it did previously and then back to back with #2 and report back.

Getting the RC's to feel similar would be nice then i can confirm it really is me or those dunlops if the M7RR's feel more planted and natural.

Doing one at a time and understanding what a click here and twiddle there does to the feel if i use the same bit of road each time (20 mile commute is perfect)

On 5/5/2020 at 12:00 AM, Mark/Foggy said:

I'd like to jump in here with a way of explaining that has helped me educate and also analyse what people want from their bike.

The springs are all its about really, you need springs that can carry the weight of the bike and yourself. Standard base park settings should be to measure static sag in those springs with the preload about half way in it's adjustment. With you on the bike you want about 25mm at the front and 15 at the rear. If you can't get this, you may need to change the springs.

What you actually want from the bike is to be level mid corner, mid apex, just at that point when you will open the throttle. You want it to be balanced on the springs and feeling flat. This gives you a good sense of confidence, it will feel natural. Those springs are working to support the weight and if you find a bump, you will have something left over to deal with it.

Those damping adjusters are more about how you get there and how it settles into that position. They control the speed of the suspension travel. 

Let's think about the front, which is normally that makes you feel most nervous, if it dives too low and it feels like it wants to tuck under you, it has moved too fast, if it won't turn in maybe it moved too slow...This is damping, compression damping.

This should help you get to the apex and let the springs do the work.

Now you are trying to steer out of the corner, if it keeps trying to turn, the front is too low and is trying to pull you further into the corner, this is too much rebound damping, the front is slow reacting to the fact that you are trying to accelerate away. If it feels like the front wants to get away from you as you open the throttle,maybe it has popped up too early and you have not enough rebound damping.

The rear is more difficult to feel and go in the right direction. This is much more about when and where you are using the engine into and out of the apex of that corner.

I would suggest that you think about the front first. If you think about the front, you will start to understand what the back is doing.

 

RC#1 on track has never felt that "tucky" it has felt a bit "floppy" into corners like its not nervous but take a while to turn in and when it does it then goes on its side and feels quite neutral and ok while on its side. To me it feels like the arse while nice and soft and squshy and comfy on the road, it is still too low causing the flop into corners while the damping is actually ok

 

Just to chuck a spanner in the works here, today i took the 45 to work and it feels so different. it thuds on bumps like you rammed it up a kerb, the tyres are bridgestones (limited choice with the 16" front) but it handles quite nicely. a little slow to turn similar to RC#1 but without the finesse or nice comfort factor.
Actually this is very much like the UK NC30 and RVF400, the NC30 is loads nicer where as the RVF400 seemed harsh and a bit cheap and shit. more light switch / on / off
The RVF400 now has a maxton rear shock and maxton sprung forks with a different needle / taper ??? the standard RVF400 forks seemed to give 20 clicks of fuck all, after click 2 it was exactly the same. Now its different. I have no real idea what they did but its way smoother and more composed 
In fact i would go as far to say my RVF400 is possibly the best suspended bike i own i reckon - shame the front wheels got a shimmy and the head bearings are a bit loose. 

[Mark/Foggy]

Well, you've answered all of it yourself. 

Can you move all of the best bits onto #RC2?

[CRM]

So here i think i have learned something.
RC45 - just done the headrace bearings (Clean and fresh grease and check for any pits or corrosion) and noticed the forks are hard as fuck.
So when i lift the forks off the ground, and then stand the bike up on its own merits (Sag ??) i get around 20mm tops. Now the top fork big 19mm nuts are the preload yes ? 
So assuming the preload is ok - what is not ok is that when you try and drive the forks into the ground under breaking i am not touching the last 40mm of fork travel - and i am a fat bastard !!
As such does this mean the springs are all wrong and its over sprung ? hence why it feels harsh and hard
Or can i twiddle something to allow more travel to be used ? what i twiddle i am not sure. would it be the top screw slot brass thing ? i am thinking the one on the bottom of the fork controls the bounce back (upward) travel and if that's right i must thank @wavey for his Ducati video explaining that as its sunk in. 

[Gobert]

One of the common starting points is static sag - assuming there's nothing odd about the RC45's front end then I'd say 30mm is a good starting point for road use so I'd say 20mm is way too little.

[David W]

21 minutes ago, CRM said:

So here i think i have learned something.
RC45 - just done the headrace bearings (Clean and fresh grease and check for any pits or corrosion) and noticed the forks are hard as fuck.
So when i lift the forks off the ground, and then stand the bike up on its own merits (Sag ??) i get around 20mm tops. Now the top fork big 19mm nuts are the preload yes ? 
So assuming the preload is ok - what is not ok is that when you try and drive the forks into the ground under breaking i am not touching the last 40mm of fork travel - and i am a fat bastard !!
As such does this mean the springs are all wrong and its over sprung ? hence why it feels harsh and hard
Or can i twiddle something to allow more travel to be used ? what i twiddle i am not sure. would it be the top screw slot brass thing ? i am thinking the one on the bottom of the fork controls the bounce back (upward) travel and if that's right i must thank @wavey for his Ducati video explaining that as its sunk in. 

You shouldn’t be able to bottom the forks out just by bouncing on them. They’d be way too soft if you could. They should compress about 35-40mm total with you sat on the bike in your riding gear.

Edited May 7, 2020 by David W

[Damnthistinleg]

1 hour ago, CRM said:

So assuming the preload is ok - what is not ok is that when you try and drive the forks into the ground under breaking i am not touching the last 40mm of fork travel - and i am a fat bastard !!

The preload is essentially just a height adjuster so its setting is only really okay if the springs are okay first. Best not pay that too much attention for now.

As for travel, I'd only expect to use almost all of my travel at the end of a straight when braking from the point of 'fucking hell' to the turning in point of a hairpin or up the inside of Chocy. I am also a chubber.

If you're using about 30% of your travel with you in all your gear and sitting on your bike in a sort of racing crouch, your springs are about right. That's preferably with hardly any preload used, so you can add a bit for when you go on track (where about 20-25% is a reasonable starting point).

You mentioned Hyperpro springs somewhere; are these the progressive type? If yes, that does cloud things a tad.

If you have any record of your spring rates anywhere, your job will be so much easier, ahem, going forward*.

 

 

 

 

* - Sorry about that.

[Mark/Foggy]

I don't know those forks, but the 19mm should be Pre-load. It is shortening the spring to change where the suspension unit itself sits when it has weight on it. That position is your static sag, which is currently 20mm. If you unwind both sides to their full extent, you should see more than 20mm, ideally in the middle of the limits between fully wound out and fully wound in, you should get about 25/30 mm.  As you are saying that you weigh a bit, 25mm may work out better. 30/35mm with you on it is good, but very difficult to measure on your own. You need some one to steady the bike while you are on it in a full crouch. Have you fitted a cable tie around the for legs yet,  if you are careful not to bump it around, you can get static sag on your own by measuring how far down the fork leg the cable tie moves (you measure form the other end and subtract from the fully extended number, obviously).

Have a twiddle with the brass adjusters as well. Wind them in gently and count the clicks until you feel them stop, then wind back the same number of clicks. Then do the same in reverse, wind them out and count.Return back to where they were again. You always set them the same number, same with the preload adjustment, both legs must be the same, but count spanner flats if you cannot measure the stick out accurately.

It is not unknown for some monkey to have come along and wound the compression and rebound adjuster fully in on one leg or the other.

[Gobert]

8 minutes ago, Damnthistinleg said:

The preload is essentially just a height adjuster so its setting is only really okay if the springs are okay first. Best not pay that too much attention for now.

As for travel, I'd only expect to use almost all of my travel at the end of a straight when braking from the point of 'fucking hell' to the turning in point of a hairpin or up the inside of Chocy. I am also a chubber.

If you're using about 30% of your travel with you in all your gear and sitting on your bike in a sort of racing crouch, your springs are about right. That's preferably with hardly any preload used, so you can add a bit for when you go on track (where about 20-25% is a reasonable starting point).

You mentioned Hyperpro springs somewhere; are these the progressive type? If yes, that does cloud things a tad.

If you have any record of your spring rates anywhere, your job will be so much easier, ahem, going forward*.

 

 

 

 

* - Sorry about that.

But isn't setting static sag to the right figure and then finding out your loaded sag how you determine if you need different springs or not?

 

 

[CRM]

I got the standard figures for the 45, so will take a note of what my settings are - then return to standard and try riding it and report back next week hopefully.

 

[Damnthistinleg]

2 hours ago, Gobert said:

But isn't setting static sag to the right figure and then finding out your loaded sag how you determine if you need different springs or not?

 

 

I don't really see the benefit to just the bike's sag to be honest but it might be helpful in a particular calculation. The only thing that's really important is what the combination of bike and rider does to the suspension and what that in turn does to the geometry through all the aspects of riding. If you know what the bike and rider weighs (and most of us do), the ideal spring rate for the purpose is quite easily determined.

To take a punt though, a minimum of 1.0kg/mm fronts are going to be somewhere near for general use and a bit of track riding.

 

[CRM]

My 45 the settings are
There is 15mm sticking out the top of the yokes 
the top screw brass thing is 5 clicks back (it was 4 but there was another click once you worked it a couple of times)
the bottom screw brass thing is also 5 clicks back
there are 4 rungs showing on the preload adjusters on the forks (22 mm nut)

Now according this this the 45 should only have 

[Gobert]

8 hours ago, Damnthistinleg said:

I don't really see the benefit to just the bike's sag to be honest but it might be helpful in a particular calculation. The only thing that's really important is what the combination of bike and rider does to the suspension and what that in turn does to the geometry through all the aspects of riding. If you know what the bike and rider weighs (and most of us do), the ideal spring rate for the purpose is quite easily determined.

To take a punt though, a minimum of 1.0kg/mm fronts are going to be somewhere near for general use and a bit of track riding.

 

I'm just going on what the pros - in my case Maxton, Kias, MCT and 100% Suspension - have told me over the years. Each time I've had the springs changed they asked for my weight in my riding gear and then told me to set the static sag in the 25 > 30mm range depending on if it was for road or track. Then to check the loaded sag and make sure that figure is in the ball park.

[Jenny Pryde]

Every interview with every racer that ever threw a leg over an RC45, mentions that they could never get good suspension settings.  

[David W]

1 hour ago, Gobert said:

I'm just going on what the pros - in my case Maxton, Kias, MCT and 100% Suspension - have told me over the years. Each time I've had the springs changed they asked for my weight in my riding gear and then told me to set the static sag in the 25 > 30mm range depending on if it was for road or track. Then to check the loaded sag and make sure that figure is in the ball park.

You’re right.

If you can get the rider sag right but there’s zero sag with your weight off the bike, your springs are too soft and you’ve just got the preload wound right in.

If the rider sag is right but you’ve got too much static sag, the springs are too hard then the springs are too hard.

You’ve got the right springs when you can achieve both numbers with a bit of tweaking of the preload (and there will be two or three rates that will be in range)

Sounds counter-intuitive but that’s how it was explained to me. Fucking black art that it is 🤣

[Jenny Pryde]

My Rider Sag measurement has changed considerably since lockdown.

[Damnthistinleg]

1 hour ago, Gobert said:

I'm just going on what the pros - in my case Maxton, Kias, MCT and 100% Suspension - have told me over the years. Each time I've had the springs changed they asked for my weight in my riding gear and then told me to set the static sag in the 25 > 30mm range depending on if it was for road or track. Then to check the loaded sag and make sure that figure is in the ball park.

Which is correct but I think we're discussing slightly different things. If you're going to visit someone like Maxton for a setting up session or doing it yourself from scratch then yes, you'd be daft to not go through the whole procedure and ride home with a decent solution. If you just want to see where you are with what you already have in your bike/workshop, the only thing I'm really interested in is what I'm doing to the existing suspension within the range of available adjustment. This is largely because I never seem to know what springs are in a bike or a new set of forks. When I know what's happening and marry that information up with what I'm experiencing as I ride, I will hopefully get a better idea of where I want to make changes and by how much.

For home setup, there's plenty of charts out there to determine spring rates that take into account the bike, the rider and the type of riding and they're very useful to get a good starting point for a DIY setup. I think part of the question here is that he's not just after the 'ideal' settings, he's after it feeling a certain way too so it pays to understand what is happening when a bike and rider is acting upon the suspension.

The other potential issue is that of progressive springs and whether they have been fitted, which would complicate things a bit.

Above all else though, the workshop settings are only good enough to get you out of the garage and in a position to see what happens when you ride it.

 

[David W]

6 minutes ago, Jenny Pryde said:

My Rider Sag measurement has changed considerably since lockdown.

Mine is better described as saggy rider.

[David W]

2 minutes ago, Damnthistinleg said:

The other potential issue is that of progressive springs and whether they have been fitted, which would complicate things a bit.

 

Mess things right up but I suppose they are trying to be everything to everyone and just end up being mediocre everywhere/