Teach me about suspension

[CRM]

Guys, my name is Gareth and i know fuck all about suspension. 
To me its a dark art, i hear compression, and rebound and it means fuck all and goes in one and out of the other. 
I do however know what i feel and can feel changes made on a bike even if i have no idea how to describe whats been changed.

This 750 feels crashy, harsh and really quite unpleasant. I prefer a softer more squishy feel from my bikes even if they bust some shapes when leant over. 

I have no idea where to start. 
I have learnt more from @wavey recent ducati videos than anything else - yet is still is a dark art and i have no idea what to twiddle to get this thing feeling a little more compliant and suited to a gent of my stature. 
 

[Gobert]

Suspension 101.

Introduction

Unfortunately there is no literature that can give you the perfect machine setup. Also suspension setup is individually dependent on the rider (style, preference) and track conditions, which vary from race to race. We can therefore only try to give you guidelines and ground rules for the chassis setup of your machine.

General guideline
The general guideline in road racing is that the suspension has to support the tires to create the best possible grip. For this reason suspension plays it's most important role in corners, chicanes, acceleration and braking. In the straight line the suspension works satisfactory if it can absorb the bumps without causing instability.

Suspension stroke
A road race bike should normally not use its full suspension stroke, although on some circuit one or two big bumps or hollows can cause the suspension to bottom. Also landing of front wheel after wheelies can cause excessive use of the front fork stroke. If suspension bottoms in big bump or hollow, it should not automatically mean that the suspension should be set harder. However, if suspension bottoms at the place were the maximum grip is essential the tire cannot create the best traction, because it also has to perform as spring. Adjusting the setting is necessary. During every riding session the suspension stroke should be carefully checked. When tire grip and lap times improve, the suspension has a harder job. So, setting must be set harder. On the opposite, when it starts raining tire grip and lap times go down, in that case a softer setting should be applied.

Suspension setup
Before starting suspension setup, read the owners manual!
A tip, do your changes in suspension setup one by one, try to learn what effect each individual adjustment has on your bike and take notes!

Static sag without rider
Hold the bike upright on a flat surface. Independently lift front and rear until the suspension is fully extended, the value should be approximately:

Type Front sag Rear sag
Super Bike 20-30 mm 5-10 mm
Super Sport 20-30 mm 5-10 mm
RR 250 15-25 mm 0-5 mm
RR125 15-25 mm Just top out 0 mm

Note: An RR 125 cannot afford to loose the momentum that the sag would give in a straight line (loss of top speed). The static sag is adjusted by the spring preload. The procedure is the same for the front fork and rear shock.
Static sag with rider
The accepted manner to adjust the spring ratio is to measure how much stroke is used with the rider sitting on the bike in straight line position (behind fairing) after you have set the correct static sag without rider. Normally 1/3 of the full stroke is a good starting point for all machines. This is only a guide line for the right spring ratio. The final check must be done on the circuit.

Note: Ohlins racing shocks features a "top-out" spring to prevent the shock from extending to quickly, causing the rear wheel to jump under braking. The top-out spring also affects the negative sag, making it difficult to adjust the sag with the shock on the bike.

Your Ohlins shock is delivered with the correct spring preload set and we recommend you to use this value for the basic setup. Ride height should be adjusted with the ride height adjuster on the bike or on the shock.

Rebound damping:
*Rear suspension
Too much rebound damping can cause:
- The rear "jumps" on the bumps instead of following the surface.
- The rear "jitters" under braking.
- It holds the rear down with the result that the bike will understeer!
- It can cause overheating in the hydraulic system of the shock absorber and make it fade, in other words, it will loose damping when hot.

Too little rebound damping can cause:
- The rear "tops out" too fast under braking, causing the rear wheel to jump
- The bike feels unstable.

*Front suspension
Too much rebound damping can cause:
- Oversteering!
- It will give poor grip of the front tire.
- It feels like the front wheels will tuck under in corners.

Too little rebound damping can cause:
- Understeer!
- The front can feel unstable.

Compression damping
Rear suspension
Too much compression damping can cause:
- The rear wheel to slide under acceleration .
-It can give a harsh ride over bumps.

Too little compression damping can cause:
- The rear wheel start to bump sideways under acceleration out of the corner. - The bike will squad too much (rear is too low), that will cause the front to loose grip.

Front suspension
Too much compression damping can cause:
- Good result during braking.
- Feels harsh over the bumps.

Too little compression damping can cause:
- Strong diving of the front.

Adjustment advice:
Compression damping should be adjusted together with front fork oil level.

Spring ratio:
Rear
Too hard spring ratio:
- Gives easy turning into corners.
- Makes the rear feel harsh.
- Create poor rear wheel traction.

Too soft spring ratio:
- Gives good traction in acceleration.
- Creates understeer in entry of corner.
- Makes too much suspension travel which will make it difficult to "flick" the bike from one side to the other in a chicane.
- Will give a light feeling in the front.

Front
Too hard spring ratio:
- Good under braking.
- Creates understeer.
- It feels harsh in the corners.

Too soft spring ratio:
- Gives easy turning into corners.
- Creates oversteer.
- Can cause front to tuck under.
- Bad under braking (diving).

Front fork oil level
First see manual. The modern front fork of cartridge type is very sensitive for oil Level changes, because of the small air volume Air inside the front fork works as a spring. The different level of oil affects the spring ratio from the middle of the stroke and has a very strong effect at the end of the stroke.
When the oil level is raised:
The air spring in the later half stage of travel is stronger, and thus the front forks harder.

When the oil level is lowered:
The air spring in the later half stage of travel is lessened, and thus the front forks are softer. The oil level works most effectively at the end of the fork travel.

Note: Adjust the oil level according to your manual.




BASIC SETUP - Check the following first:

Forks/Rear Shock - Race sag 25-30 mm, 1 - 1 3/16 inch
Forks/Rear Shock - Street sag 30-35 mm, 1 3/16 - 1 3/8 inch
Check chain alignment. If not correct, sprocket wear is increased.
Proper tire balance and pressure. If out of balance, there will be vibration in either wheel
Steering head bearings and torque specifications, If too loose, head will shake at high speeds.
Front end alignment. Check wheel alignment with triple clamps. If out of alignment, fork geometry will be incorrect and steering will suffer.
Crash damage, check for proper frame geometry.

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TROUBLESHOOTING FORK DAMPING PROBLEMS

Fork Adjustment Locations:

Rebound adjustment (if applicable) is located near the top of the fork.
Compression adjustment (if applicable) is located near the bottom of the fork.
Spring preload adjustment (if applicable) is generally hex style and located at the top of the fork.
Forks - Lack of Rebound:

Symptoms

Forks are plush, but increasing speed causes loss of control and traction.
The motorcycle wallows exiting the turn causing fading traction and loss of control.
When taking a corner a speed, you experience front-end chatter, loss of traction and control.
Aggressive input at speed lessons control and chassis attitude suffers.
Front end fails to recover after aggressive input over bumpy surfaces.
Solution

Insufficient rebound - Increase rebound "gradually" until control and traction are optimized and chatter is gone.
Forks - Too Much Rebound:

Symptoms

Front end feels locked up resulting in harsh ride.
Suspension packs in and fails to return, giving a harsh ride.
Typically after the first bump, the bike will skip over subsequent bumps.
With acceleration, the front end will tank slap or shake violently due to lack of front wheel tire contact.
Solution

Too much rebound - Decrease rebound "gradually" until control and traction are optimized.

Forks - Lack of Compression:

Symptoms

Front-end dives severely, sometimes bottoming out over heavy bumps or during aggressive breaking
Front feels soft or vague similar to lack of rebound.
When bottoming, a clunk is heard. This is due to reaching the bottom of fork travel.
Solution

Insufficient compression - Increase "gradually" until control and traction are optimized.

Forks - Too Much Compression:

Symptoms

Front end rides high through the corners, causing the bike to steer wide. It should ride in the middle of suspension travel.
Front wheel bounces over bumps while ripples and bumps are felt directly in the triple clamps and through the chassis.
Ride is generally hard, and gets even harder when braking or entering turns.
Solution

Too much compression - Decrease compression "gradually" until the bike neither bottoms or rides high, and control and traction are optimized.

Symptom

Front end chatters or shakes entering turns. This is due to incorrect oil height and/or too much low speed compression damping
Solution
First, verify that oil height is correct. If correct, then decrease compression "gradually" until chattering and shaking ceases.


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TROUBLESHOOTING SHOCK DAMPING PROBLEMS

Shock Adjustment Locations:

Rebound adjustment (if applicable) is located at the bottom of the shock.
Compression adjustment (if applicable) is located at the top of the shock or on the reservoir.
Spring preload is located at the top of the shock.
Shock - Lack of Rebound:

Symptoms

The ride will feel soft or vague and as speed increases, the rear end will want to wallow and/or weave over bumpy surfaces and traction suffers.
Loss of traction will cause rear end to pogo or chatter due to shock returning too fast on exiting a corner.
Solution

Insufficient rebound - Increase rebound until wallowing and weaving disappears and control and traction are optimized.

Shock - Too Much Rebound:

Symptoms

Ride is harsh, suspension control is limited and traction is lost.
Rear end will pack down, forcing the bike wide in corners, due to rear squat. It will slow steering because front end is riding high.
When rear end packs in, tires generally will overheat and will skip over bumps.
When chopping throttle, rear end will tend to skip or hop on entries.
Solution

Too much rebound - Decrease rebound "gradually" until harsh ride is gone and traction is regained. Decrease rebound to keep rear end from packing.

Shock - Lack of Compression:

Symptoms
The bike will not turn in entering a turn.
With bottoming, control and traction are lost.
With excessive rear end squat, when accelerating out of corners, the bike will tend to steer wide.
Solution

Insufficient compression - Increase compression "gradually until traction and control is optimized and/or excessive rear end squat is gone.

Shock - Too Much Compression:

Symptoms

Ride is harsh, but not as bad as too much rebound. As speed increases, so does harshness.
There is very little rear end squat. This will cause loss of traction/sliding. Tire will overheat.
Rear end will want to kick when going over medium to large bumps.
Solution

Too much compression - Decrease compression until harshness is gone. Decrease compression until sliding stops and traction is regained.


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Front Fork Problems
Possible Cure

Race sag too small -
Reduce preload.

Race sag too great -
Increase preload.

Forks compress too far on smooth turns -
Stiffer springs, increase preload.

Forks dive too far (bottom out) -
Stiffer springs, reduce air gap, possibly increase preload.

Always losing front end on corner entry -
Softer springs, adjust weight distribution.

Front end chatters coming out of corners - Softer rebound springs or main springs, reduce damping.

Bike difficult to turn in -
Softer springs, reduce preload or compression damping, alter steering geometry

Front wheel skips on bumps -
Softer springs, reduce compression damping, increase air gap.

Forks judder when braking on a straight -
Reduce compression damping.

Forks dive too fast -
Increase compression damping.

Forks pump down on fast bumpy corners -
Reduce rebound damping.

Excessive pogo action through chicanes -
Slightly increase rebound damping.

Front end shakes (not chatters) in corners -
Increase rebound damping.

Front end shoots up too fast after braking -
Increase rebound damping.


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Rear Shock Problems
Possible Cure

Race sag too great -
Increase preload.

Race sag too small -
Reduce preload.

Rear squats on acceleration -
Stiffer spring, increase anti-squat angle, slightly increase compression damping.

Very Harsh ride over ripples -
Reduce compression damping.

Bike wallows - Increase rebound damping.

Rear jacks up too fast on braking -
Increase rebound damping.

Rear end chatters exiting slow corners -
Increase rebound damping.

Bike kicks off ripples or bounces on bumps -
Increase rebound damping.

Rear end pumps down on bumpy corners -
Reduce rebound damping.




LACK OF COMPRESSION DAMPING ( Front Fork )

Front end dive while on the brakes becomes excessive.
Rear end of motorcycle wants to "come around" when using front brakes aggressively.
Front suspension "bottoms out" with a solid hit under heavy braking and after hitting bumps.
Front end has a mushy and semi-vague feeling, similar to lack of rebound damping.


TOO MUCH COMPRESSION DAMPING ( Front Fork )

Overly harsh ride, especially right at the point when bumps and ripples are contacted by the front wheel.
Bumps and ripples are felt directly - the initial hit is routed through the chassis instantly, with big bumps bouncing the tire off the pavement.
The bike's ride height is affected negatively - the front end winds up riding too high in the corners.
Brake dive is reduced drastically, though the chassis is upset significantly by bumps encountered during braking.


LACK OF REBOUND DAMPING ( Front Fork )

The fork offers a supremely plush ride, especially when riding straight up. However, when the pace picks up the feeling of control is lost. The fork feels mushy, and traction "feel" is poor.
After hitting bumps at speed, the front tire tends to chatter or bounce.
When flicking the bike into a corner at speed, the bike will tend to "porpoise" or wallow a bit, before settling down. Getting aggressive with the controls makes it worse. As speed increases and steering inputs become more aggressive, chassis attitude and pitch become a real problem, with the front traction feedback going numb after the bike is countersteered hard into a turn.


TOO MUCH REBOUND DAMPING ( Front Fork )

The ride is quite harsh - just the opposite of the plush feet of too little rebound. Rough pavement makes the forks feel as if they're locking up with stiction and harshness.
Under hard acceleration exiting bumpy corners, the front end feels like it wants to "wiggle" or "tankslap." The tire feels as if it isn't staying in contact with the pavement when on the gas.
The harsh, unforgiving ride makes the bike hard to control when riding through dips and rolling bumps at speed. The suspension's reluctance to maintain tire traction through these sections erodes rider confidence.



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LACK OF COMPRESSION DAMPING ( Rear Shock )

Too much rear end "squat" under acceleration - bike wants to steer wide exiting corners (since chassis is riding rear-low/nose-high).
Hitting bumps at speed causes the rear to bottom, which upsets the chassis.
Chassis attitude affected too much by large dips and "G-outs" - steering and control become difficult due to excessive suspension movement.


TOO MUCH COMPRESSION DAMPING ( Rear Shock )

Ride is harsh, though not quite as bad as too much rebound - however, the faster you go the worse it gets.
Harshness hurts rear tire traction over bumps, especially during deceleration.
There is very little rear end "squat" under acceleration.
Medium to large bumps are felt directly through the chassis - when hit at speed, the rear end kicks up.


LACK OF REBOUND DAMPING ( Rear Shock )

The ride is plush at cruising speeds, but as the pace increases, the chassis begins to wallow and weave through bumpy corners.
Poor traction over bumps under hard acceleration - rear tire starts to chatter due to lack of wheel control.
Excessive chassis pitch through large bumps and dips at speed - rear end rebounds too fast, upsetting chassis with a pogo-stick action.

TOO MUCH REBOUND DAMPING ( Rear Shock )

Very harsh ride - rear suspension compliance is poor and "feel" is vague.
Poor traction over bumps during hard acceleration (due to lack of suspension compliance).
Bike wants to run wide in corners since the rear end is "packing down" - this forces a nose-high chassis attitude, which slows down steering.
Rear end wants to hop and skip when the throttle is chopped during aggressive corner entries




Part 2.

Suspension 101: Round 2, by Max McAllister (Traxxion Dynamics)

Do not be embarrassed if you are unfamiliar with the basics. Most racers aren't. This is one reason some riders struggle as novices for years and never improve. Some racers crash frequently and don't understand why. If your bike isn't set up properly, it will frighten you and you will assume that you are going as fast as you can safely. In the meantime, some of your peers just continue to go faster while you stagnate. You can change this. Sometimes it's as easy as turning a couple of screws. Then you can be frightened because you're really haulin' ass!!!!!!!

TERMINOLOGY:

Sag....Distance a motorcycle compresses with weight on it. There are two types of sag we deal with. The first is "free" (static) sag, which is the amount the springs compress under the weight of the bike. The second is rider sag, which is the amount the springs compress with the rider on board.

Preload....This is the amount a spring is compressed with no weight on it at all

Dampening....this is the primary function of your suspension. It controls the movement of your springs as they encounter irregularities in the pavement. Without dampening, you are riding a pogo stick. There are two types we will address. The first is compression dampening, which controls the downward movement of your motorcycle (upward movement of the wheel). The second is rebound dampening. It controls the upward movement of your motorcycle (extension of the suspension).

Rake....Angle of your steering axis.

Trail....Distance the contact patch of the front tire trails the steering axis' imaginary point of contact with the ground. More trail makes your bike more stable. Less trail makes it steer faster. Watch the wheels of a grocery cart, they always fall in line behind the cart when you push it forward. This self-aligning effect is the result of trail.
Ride Height....distance the motorcycle rides above the ground. Can be changed at the front or the rear (or both) to alter handling characteristics.


COMPONENT INSPECTION:

A quick visual inspection of the components of your chassis will make sure that your chassis will be able to be adjusted into the ballpark. You'll need to look closely at the following areas.

Rear shock....Look for external physical damage to the shock itself. The main thing to look for though, is oil leaking around the shaft. Turn the rebound adjuster in all the way and push on the seat. You want to see a very slow return action. Turn the compression adjuster in (if so equipped), and the shock should feel stiffer.

Front fork....Look for misalignment, nicks in the tubes, and damage to the sliders. Again your primary concern is oil leaking around the seals. Turn the rebound adjuster in all the way (if your bike has one) and look for very slow action. Turn the compression adjuster in (if so equipped), and the forks should feel stiffer.

Tires....Look for irregular wear patterns. This can tell you a lot about the function of your chassis. They should be smooth and clean with no major visible irregularities.

Wheels....These should be round, no dents, cracks (2mm of run out is the service limit, up and down, and side to side) inspect the wheel bearings anytime you remove the wheels.

Brakes....Check for fluid leaks by pulling hard on the lever and keeping pressure on it for a minute or so. There should be no fluid escape at all. Use a high boiling point racing DOT 3 or 4 fluid. Look closely at your rotors and be cognizant of their wear.

Chain and Sprockets....This is simply the most commonly screwed up service item on motorcycles. Most people have their chains too tight. It should have slop in it even when you sit on the bike. A worn chain is the recipe for disaster. Don't mess around with a worn chain.

Steering head....An improperly adjusted steering head is simply dangerous. If it's too loose, the bike will wobble and wallow. If it’s too tight, the bike will "track" (go where it wants to on the straights) and not steer properly. Try and find an expert mechanic to assist you with this


BASELINE SETUP

At this point, we're finally going to do some measuring and adjusting. We will use a known working baseline to set up your chassis. Then the next time you practice, you will be able to analyze how it works and fine tune it to work even better. All suspension adjustments made by pushing or bouncing on the bike should be made with the bike off the stands, on level ground, and with the bike in neutral.

Rear Shock....The first and most basic adjustment is to set the sag on the shock. When you make these measurements, accuracy is important. If at all possible, use a metric tape measure with millimeter increments. If you use an S.A.E. tape, then measure to the sixteenth of an inch (1" = 25.4mm). You need to pick two fixed points on the rear of your bike for this. One on the rear of the swingarm (like a stand spool or the axle), and one on the sub frame (like one of the bolts that holds the rear passenger pegs on. never use the bodywork since it can sag when the rider gets on). Before you can measure the sag, you must first find the fully extended measurement between your two points. Have a friend help you by pulling up on the footpegs to fully extend the rear suspension. Your bike may be fully extended already. If it is, this is not a problem. Record the distance at "full extension" on your log sheet. Now have your friend balance the bike for you and push down on the seat several times to settle the suspension. Now measure and record the distance between your two points again. This is your static sag. There should definitely be a little static sag on the rear shock. Most expert race bikes have 5-10mm static sag. Your next measurement is rider sag. Have a friend stand at the front of your bike and balance it by the ends of the handlebars. Sit on the bike like you would ride it and bounce down on it three times to settle the suspension. Now have another friend measure between your two points for you and log the measurement in the log. This is your rider sag. Next you need to subtract your rider sag measurement from your full extension measurement. This is your rear sag measurement. You should have 30mm of sag. This is your baseline setting and can be adjusted after your test ride. If your spring tops out the bike, you will need a stiffer spring.

Now we need to adjust the dampening. The object is to get the suspension to respond as quickly as possible to irregularities in the pavement. Dampening is required to control the movement of the wheel and the spring. Set your rebound dampening adjuster first. It is difficult to explain how it should appear in words, but as you push on the seat, it should return quickly, but not instantaneously. It should take approximately one second for it to return to the top from a hard push. You should be able to watch the seat rise. If it just pops back up right away, you need to add rebound. If it drags up slowly, loosen it up. If you have a compression adjuster, sit it up in the middle. You can determine how to adjust it after your initial test ride, too hard loosen it up, and to soft add.


Front Forks....Start here by setting the sag on the fork the same way you did on the shock. First you need a fully extended measurement. Only way to get consistency is to have two guys pick up on the handlebars until the front wheel leaves the ground slightly. Measure the exposed area of the fork slider. On a conventional fork, this will be from the bottom of the lower triple tree to the top of the dust seal on the slider. For an inverted fork, this will be from the dust seal down to the top edge of the aluminum axle clamp. Record this measurement on your log sheet. Push down on the fork hard three times, to settle the suspension. Now measure the static sag. Finally, get on the bike and push down three more times, while a friend balances the bike. Have your friend with the tape take the final measurement. The measurement you are looking for on the front fork is 35mm. If your spring is of the correct rate, the free sag should be about 65 percent of the rider sag, or about 20mm. The front fork has to have a great deal of free sag so that the front wheel may move down into a hole as well as over a bump. If your fork has too much sag turn the preload adjuster in. If you don't have preload adjusters, then you will have to remove your fork spacers and cut longer preload spacers. Adjust in 10mm increments. When you get close, you can go to 5mm increments.

Next is the dampening adjustment. The fork needs to move much faster by comparison than the shock. Again, you should be able to watch it rebound, but not as slowly as the shock. Grab the front brake and push down on the front of the bike as hard as you can. Don't release the brake and don't resist the rising action of the fork. Observe the action. You want it to rise back as quickly as possible without topping out and settling back down again. Loosen the rebound until the bike does want to settle back after topping out, and then dial in just enough rebound to make that settling tendency go away.

The compression adjuster should be set as softly as possible, but prevent the fork from bottoming over severe bumps or under hard braking.

If you do not have these adjusters available to you externally, then you must change your fork oil weight to adjust the dampening. Thicker oil affects both compression and rebound dampening.

If your forks works properly over bumps, but bottoms under hard braking, you can add more oil, or "raise the level" to help prevent bottoming. This reduces the air cushion you fork has above the oil.


Steering Dampener....This is primarily a safety device and should be thought of as such and treated with great respect. Anyone racing without one might as well not wear leathers or a helmet. It's very dangerous. It should not be used to mask a bad handling motorcycle. When you go out to test your suspension, have the dampener set so that is barely drags when you sweep the wheel from side to side. It should not make your bike difficult to steer in the pits. Test ride the bike and analyze what it's doing before you crank up the dampener. A dampener that is too stiff will make the bike track from side to side and will be difficult to steer. After you make changes always return to this base setting, and then adjust.


Jockey check....quick test method. Have a friend balance the bike while you get on and assume your riding position. Lift up off the seat slightly and bounce down on the bike. It should compress and rebound in a balanced fashion from front to rear evenly. If your bike isn't balanced, it won't work right. Your initial adjustments are only to get to this simple test. If the bike isn't acting balanced, adjust it until it does regardless of the initial adjustments you made. Balance is the single most important facet of chassis setup. A bike that is too soft or too stiff is still easier to go fast on than one that is out of balance. If you bounce lightly, it should act balanced, as well as if you bounce with great force.


PERFORMANCE ANALYSIS/DIAL IN
Now that you have a good baseline set-up, it's time for a test ride. Ensure that your tires have the correct pressure in them, and head to the track or your testing grounds. In order to make an assessment of your bike's chassis, you need to be conscious of what's going on while you are riding it. Someday when your a racing god, you'll have data acquisition equipment to tell your chassis engineers what to adjust. But until then, you are the only suspension sensor on your motorcycle. This is actually the best way to learn. There are several things you need to analyze as you ride.

High speed stability.....this should be self explanatory, and the easiest to analyze. Go fast in a straight line and your bike should never scare you. If it does, you have some adjusting to do.

Performance under braking....Is the bike stable? Does it squirm underneath you? Does the front wheel bounce? Does the rear wheel bounce? Does the forks bottom? How does the bike behave trail braking?

Performance in the corners....This needs to be analyzed in three segments: Turn in, mid corner, and exit. Be conscious of these things within each of these segments: Overall stability, steering effort, ground clearance, front wheel action, and rear wheel action. That’s a bunch of stuff to think about, especially when you're just trying to circulate and learn to ride. If any of these things are out of whack, they'll usually let you know, consistently, in most turns. Here is an explanation of what to look for.

Overall stability....The main thing to look for here is wallowing
action. There should not be any. Wallow indicates a need for more
spring.

Steering effort....Does the bike track well in the corners? Do you
have to fight to keep it on the racing/riding line? Are your arms
completely worn out after riding/practice?

Ground clearance....If you have anything dragging the ground, you
have a problem that could result in injury. Some guys think they're
cool because they drag stuff around the track/road. These people
are a hazard to themselves and others. If you have anything
dragging, fix it! Raise your footpegs, bend your pipe in, or
whatever it takes. If you lean in hard enough on a bike that's
scraping the ground you will lift a tire off the ground, and then you
will immediately take its place on the pavement; this is serious
business. If you are happy with the way your chassis works, then
don't alter your ride height to stop things from dragging. Just get
the dragging stuff up and out of the way. Changing ride height
alters the bike's handling characteristics.

Front wheel action....The wheel should roll smoothly through the corner and inspire confidence. Does the wheel bounce? If it does,
you need to pay close attention to the way it bounces. If the wheel
is bouncing and you can't really feel it in the bars, then this is a
lack of rebound dampening. If the handlebars are jarring you, then
you may have too much spring preload or compression dampening.

Use rebound dampening carefully. Too much rebound dampening
creates a situation where the fork is packing down. This means
your forks has collapsed and is not re-extending fast enough.
This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation. A fork that has packed down
has no suspension travel left. A crash is eminent. You need to
speed up your rebound dampening. You may also need a higher
fork oil level, or more compression dampening to keep the forks
from bottoming. This situation is usually set up by hard braking
that compresses the fork followed by trail braking into the turn
which never lets the forks recover. Some additional spring may
help this too.

Rear wheel action....Your rear wheel can exhibit many of the same symptoms as the front wheel. If your bike feels like a pogo stick then this is typically an all around lack of dampening. This condition will also cause a bunch of wheelspin on exit and tear up your tire. Wheelspin also fools riders into believing that they are going fast; that is until some novice on a GS500E goes railing around the outside of them in a turn. Too much rebound will cause the rear wheel to "swim" under the bike side to side under hard straight line braking. This is because the shock is packing up and the rear wheel is hanging in the air instead of returning to the ground to keep you pointed straight.

A lack of compression dampening will cause the bike to pogo while under acceleration. This will be a vertical "sawing" motion; vertical relative to the bike even though it is still leaned over. Too much compression dampening will make the bike "buck" or kick you in the butt over sharp bumps. This can also cause excessive wheelspin. The shock should be soft enough to let the bike squat some. This transfer of weight helps give the tire more grip.

When you notice a flaw in your suspension, note where it occurred in the turn. Was it as you rolled into the turn, was it in the middle of the turn, or was it as you accelerated out of the turn? This is critical information to help you (and a suspension tuner) decide what the correct changes should be.


Chassis geometry....If your bike's chassis is soaking bumps properly, but your bike isn't steering around the track properly, then you need to adjust the "attitude" or "geometry" of your bike. This will affect it all the way around the track.

The variables you have to work with are the fork height, and the swingarm angle. Here's what each does.
Fork angle....Will increase or decrease your trail. Moving the nose of the bike lower (forks higher in the clamps) will make it steer faster, but will be less stable. Moving the nose of the bike higher (forks lower in the clamps) will require more steering effort, and will increase stability. Most expert riders say this increases "feel" at extreme lean angles.

For most novice riders, will find it the easiest way to evaluate this is to ride through a high speed sweeper and evaluate how the bike steers into the turn and notice how much effort it takes to make it steer to the apex of the turn. In other words, "How does it hold a line?”

If the bike is too low in the front, it will steer dramatically, and try and drive off the inside of the track. It will be unstable all the way through a turn, and sometimes even on the straight-aways.

If the bike is too high in the front, it will steer in slowly and require that you pull on the bars to hold it down to get it to the apex. This condition will make it very difficult to steer the bike to the apex. It will fatigue your arms and they will feel tired after riding.

Swingarm angle....tunes the way the bike reacts to acceleration. Your motorcycle wants to "squat" under acceleration due to the rearward weight transfer.

If the swingarm is too flat, the bike will squat too much, and the bike will sit back and the front will extend like a "chopper". This will make the bike want to "run wide" or run off the edge of the track. The front end will feel light and dance about as you are leaving a turn. The result is that you have to wait to get on the throttle. You should raise the rear of the bike to correct this.

If the swingarm angle is too steep, then the bike will not squat enough, and the result will be poor traction. This is "wheelspin" If you can whack the gas, and the wheel spins up, then you need to lower the back of the bike.

Here's where it gets more complicated. Changing one end of the bike affects the other. There is a simple way to figure it out. If your problem occurs from steer-in to mid-corner, then change the front. If your problem
occurs from mid-corner to the exit, then change the rear. Although there is no way to accurately mathematically describe what happens when you make a change, here is a VERY crude way to think about it.

Changing the front ride height has an effect of "5" on the front and an effect of "1" on the rear. Changing the rear has an effect of "5" on the rear, and an effect of "1" on the front.

A common example of where riders improperly change their bikes comes when the bike steers in too slowly. Many confused riders and tuners will raise the back of the bike. This makes the nose steeper, and the bike will steer more sharply. But remember, in order to get an effect of "1" on the front of the bike, you have now make an effect of "5" on the rear. Your bike may now turn in better, but you will get less traction, more wheelspin, and more tendency to high-side. This is not what you wanted... The correct change is to lower the nose of the bike. This affects the turn in "5 (front)" and the exit "1 (rear)". Much better!!!!

If you have no idea where to start with your geometry, look around the pits or ask a suspension tuner. There is no correct answer or magic formula for what you personally want your bike to do. Your personal style of riding will dictate to you what to do with the bike. You will find that most production bikes are way off of what’s is generally "good" Find a range of "good" seems to be for your model of bike and start on the "safe" or "stable" side of the range.


CONCLUSION

With this information you should have a good idea what's going on with your bike on the track or street. Here's the bad news: You will always be adjusting it if you want to go faster!!!! DO NOT be afraid to make changes!!! You will never learn or improve if you don't. Nothing you do will make you go out and crash unless you are stupid. Make a change, and then slowly build up to your pace over a couple laps to feel out the difference. If it doesn't feel better to you, then come in and change it back. If it does feel better, you may still want to change it back to be sure it did. It is easy to convince yourself you made your bike "better", because you want it to be. This is how most people get "lost".

If you make a change and go out and crash, it is not because you made a change. You crashed because you crashed. If you think about it professional riders, they get different springs, forks, and shocks all the time. They aren't usually just making simple little changes. If you could crash from a few simple clicks of rebound or a turn of ride height, then pro riders would never finish practice! The point is not to be scared to make changes.

Make notes after you get off the bike while your thoughts are clear in your mind. If you are unsure about which way to go with your adjustments, your notes will be helpful to you when you seek advice. Keep a thorough log of all of your changes. The next time you return to the same track, you'll be able to set up better before you get there. You'll find that a properly set-up chassis will be worth more than all the horsepower money can buy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

[Jenny Pryde]

Haven't read this yet.

Just wondering how IforB is using Gobert's account.

[David W]

My advice? Phone KTech.
 

Jokes aside, are all your posh homologation bikes on their original suspension and suspension oil?

Quickest suspension setup in the World:

Screw the Compression adjusters all the way in, then back out to 50% of available.

Screw the Rebound adjusters all the way in then 25% back out.

This works as a start point on most bikes. FACT!

Edited April 27, 2020 by David W

[Gobert]

@CRM .......... what I posted is the guide I've used for years however I'm very much of the opinion that some of the best money you'll spend is with people who know about suspension..............I've heard so much bollocks talked about set-up over the years by people in garages it's unreal. That guide above is a handy starting point but people rave about the services provided by suspension professionals because what they do really makes a difference.

It's also a lot easier / cheaper if you only have 1 or 2 bikes....................

[CRM]

4 minutes ago, David W said:

My advice? Phone KTech.
 

Jokes aside, are all your posh homologation bikes on their original suspension and suspension oil?

Not all no. 
Case in hand RC30#1 its soft and squidgy with a 17" rear wheel and maxton ride height converter. NC30 front wheel so a 3.5" rim over the stock 3" item
It sits high at the back on its stand and squats loads when i sit on it. forks are "nice" on the road but it feels a little chopper like and floppy into corners. feels great on its side and quite planted.
RC30#2 is standard wearing new modern Dunlop roadsmart things. I personally hate dunlops no idea why, but never ridden on one i felt any kind of confidence with. This bike sits lower and squats far less once sat on. it handles lovely to a point then feels nervous and seems to kick and get out of shape easily compared to bike #1

The R7 @Jay put it all back to stock settings, and it certainly felt firmer and squatted less on the back straight at Anglesey - but it feels horrible to ride on the road now. i preferred it on the road when it was softer
The Evo is soft as fuck anyway even post maxton rebuild, handles odd - thats in the nature of the bike even as JM discovered and said the same.
Even the CR is soft and it busts some shapes when in corners and bucks and weaves a bit, but i prefer it like that i think that hard with no feel. 

Like i say i cant describe what the issue is but i know when something feels better or worse.
Maxton have done most of these bikes with the exception of RC#2 which has had the forks revalved by dave parkinson, and standard rear shock rebuilt and valved by MCT. I actually like this feeling firmer and am convinced it the dunlops that are the issue on this bike and the way they feedback compared to the michelins or M7RR's on other bikes (but its the old 18" issue again)

[David W]

If it’s Maxton and MCT fettled then the adjusters will actually do something.

Rule of thumb is adjust compression and rebound in 2:1 ratio. For every two click added on compression add a click of rebound.

So if you want to soften things off on your bike and make it a bit more compliant knock off two clicks comp and one click rebound. If it’s not click adjusters just do it half a turn comp to a quarter turn rebound.

I’m making some pretty sweeping assumptions on the bikes but it’s not a bad starting point if everything is on standard settings. Worst case just go back to where you started.

 

[dansp1]

Invest in the race tech suspension bible, get a clear understanding of what knobs have what effect, make a note of where you are starting from and get twiddling, one thing at a time and always making note of what adjustments have been made, nobody can set up a bike for you as well as you can

 

having said that, you need good quality kit for a good set up

Edited April 27, 2020 by dansp1

[Jay]

@CRM

Methinks you need the right springs in that R7 set up for you at correct pre-load for road riding. That will help hugely bit in the meantime, a couple less clicks of Comp and Rebound wont hurt front and rear. We set that to factory but I suspect it doesn't have the factory springs in it. 👍

[CRM]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

@CRM

Methinks you need the right springs in that R7 set up for you at correct pre-load for road riding. That will help hugely bit in the meantime, a couple less clicks of Comp and Rebound wont hurt front and rear. We set that to factory but I suspect it doesn't have the factory springs in it. 👍

thanks mate - i hear words but . . . 
Which is comp is that the spinney clicky thing on the top ? 
Rebound is the on at the bottom i assume (dead clever me, i learnt that from waveys cool video. i am going to watch that again)

[David W]

On older stuff like yours, compression will very likely be at the top of the shock and forks, and rebound at the bottom. Possibly even labelled as C and R if you look closely.

Do you have the owners manuals? Its usually identified in there.

Compression damping is how fast the suspension will react when it hits a bump in the road (so has the biggest effect on ride quality arguably). In reality what you feel is the wheel being deflected and that energy either being absorbed by compliant suspension or transferring that energy right into the chassis, which is the kick up the bollocks you feel).

Rebound is how quickly the spring extends again. Too little and you get that horrible pitching feeling as the energy in the spring pings back.

Assuming the spring weights are about right to start with.

Edited April 28, 2020 by David W

[CRM]

Thanks guys,
I have just spoke with Rich at Maxton, and he has agreed to take the #1 RC30 as a whole bike and they will dyno the suspension as is for me, and from there we can have a conversation of what i like about it and what i dont like about it and what i would like to feel different about it.

Ok so this is just one of the bikes, but hopefully if i can translate what my arse tells me to someone and they can compensate or see the issue i am having then cool. 

Some people seem to wind everything up to "track" mode and its all stiff as fuck. 
The settings on the PB blade are firm for sure, but not exactly girder like and certainly not harsh. it set at a level that i can learn it and adapt to its current settings and work around it.
The 45 is just all sorts of wrong. i don't think there is anything broken or shagged out, but it seems poor quality wise and crashy. undulations are felt, small holes and bumps are transformed to huge knocks, the rear seems to damp but has zero travel so perhaps my manly stature is all wrong for the spring yet it doesn't seem to compress much when i sit on it. Who knows like i say its a dark art to me - always has been. 

Each to our own and all that. 

[lorenzo]

Fucks sake, nobody tell him until we've got Jerez out of the way.

[2639]

Dear Gareth the suspension spaz 🙂

Gobert has pasted something very detailed and from skimming it, looks really good. The 'but'; maybe things just got a bit too foggy and it went back to the 'dark arts' creating more questions than answers.

You've had several suggestions of adjust this and the other. David W's rules of thumb of adjusting one at a ratio to the other all sound very sensible. Likewise the put it in the middle and go from there, that has merits too... when you know whats wrong and how to diagnose what it is you want.

Suspension is highly personal. It perhaps ought not to be, its just a bike gripping via its tyres. But riders do some highly individual things - which makes advice highly personal too. Eg my friend Dan distorts then damages the soles of his boots he is pushing that hard on the footrests. I chew up grips.

What pace you ride at affects things greatly. Firstly by pace I mean simple speed. Hypothtically I'm at Mallory Park now. 1.10ish and above, wind in both tyres is enough. Most folks seem to get stuck about 1.05 ish and its good to have some predictability in things. Go down to 1.00 and if things aren't right this could be dodgy, its not super fast, but its going to show up the difference between 'good' and 'bad'. And yet only only a couple of seconds over 1.3 miles between the quicker 1.05 and the slower 1.00. Below 1.00, now the suspension means something; the same energy of input, the same ideas, and good suspension can result in more speed for less risk, and ought to communicate when that level of risk is getting too much. The times are semi irrelevant, the important bit is; problems don't show up until there is a bit of oomph in the loadings the suspension expereinces. 

The other bit of pace. This is how much muscle energy a rider is putting in. And also how he deploys that energy. It is possible to to have something rather too flexible, ride it with a gentle touch, and extract lots of speed with control. Other people can't ride a bad bike. How you discern the difference and adapt tecnique would end up longer than War and Peace, and still folks would never agree.

Thats a long way of reminding you there is no perfect. That a rider who is 1 second a mile different may offer great advice, yet be wholly ignorant of the problem you are inexpertly trying to convey. And even if the bike, tyres, weather and lap time is identical.... I'm Fido Dido =6'1" 68kg/go pretty quickly/have a very light touch on bikes and move a lot. 'Right' will be very different settings for 120kg/static body/gorilla/ with 210bhp.

Bikes differ too. The RC's have an eccentric to adjust chain tension. Eccentric are a bit of a nuisance. As it rotates all sorts of geometry will change. Hopefully there is way to compensate, but the leverage acting on the spring will change. Personally I found about 4mm on the whel base warrants an increase in spring rate. This is a sufficiently small amount that chain adjustment ought to mean a spring rate for either end of chain wear range. No one is ever going to do this... but I suggest a lot of riders who can lap consistently at a fair pace would feel this if it could be done back to back. especially if it was an RC30 with one link different in the chains, your very close to describing this above Gareth. Thus high quality damping is all well and good, but if the spring rate and start position are wrong, no amount of gold anodised twiddling will ever fix it. Spring rate and spring start position (sags) have to right. If its 'production' its going to be wrong for an awful lot of people.

All that is fine. It states a lot of obvious. 

So the bite size bit.

You need to know WHERE the problem is. Where means where in the corner, then and ADDITIONALLY, what is the bike doing at that moment ( is it compressing (due to either a bump or load), or has this phase finished and its returning to the start position ready for the next disturbance).

Think of a flow chart of...

The bike is travelling at the way in or way out?

It feels like the front or rear is the problem?

What direction is the suspension travelling, is it energy in or energy out?

You have to answer that bit very honestly yourself. What to do next doesn't matter so much, but if there is not enough mental time to say it doesn't feel right when...eg way in / front end / energy is going in.... then there likely isn't enough mental time to assess if any change was better or worse, or if you make a best guess, you might miss signs of something else bad developing. I'd suggest doing less with the bike like less gear changes ride 'simpler' to put time back into thinking.

Only now do I start on checking things that ought to be there then maybe adjusting the damping to counter the feeling I don't like. You then go back to riding, keeping as much as possible identical (lines, speed, gear, power applied, which bumps you hit) and ask if its better between points A and B where you identified the first problem. Don't just go faster straight away.

Perhaps get the bikes ridden so anyhting you say is fresh in your head (and notebook) when it goes to a specialist.. they can only do so much from the workshop.

You have the boon of having 2 RC30's with slightly different set up. This ought to make the where question much easier to reveal it self. Escpecially if you went to Mallory and did half a session alternating bikes. And you have distinguished quite a lot of behaviour and changes already - identifying how the R7 squats under power, suggests original settings provided more low speed compression damping so less squating at the rear and thus more contact at the front. It shouldn't take much to get a little clearer and be able to identify the differences between loads in the suspension and disturbances from bumps when describing what(and where) is crashy and harsh.

Hope that helps.

Andy

 

[CRM]

14 hours ago, 2639 said:

Hope that helps.

Andy

 

You have no idea how much it helps - thank you.

Like i say, i am far from fast or one to push a bike hard anywhere near its (or my) limits, i am comfortable with my own pace and rarely get suckered into any kind of race or competitive battle when my #1 priority is to bring myself and the bike home in 1 piece. 
As such my career as a racer would be a short one and i am ok with that. however i just live for and love riding my bikes. 
Case in hand, a pal has a 959 Ducati and he is constantly on about changing this and twidling that, and every time i ride his bike it goes from one level of harsh to another and never to me feels right or like a bike i want to ride. 
Oddly my old CBR600 which is now owned by @nobeard is possibly one of the nicest handling bikes i have ever ridden and its road manners were just perfect. 
To be able to achieve a similar feel from the others would be amazing. 
I know the CBR was setup a little on the softer side being a 17 stone gent. and it was great. it inspired confidence and ability even on Michelin Road 3's which i also rated for the road. 
These same tyres on RC#1 work well and while is soft and bouncy at the back it damps well and copes with poor surfaces on the road, it is possibly a little too springy and soft for track or my weight. 
The front end damping and drop feels about right so i wonder if its all the arse end needed to make it turn a little less floppy and with a tad more poise and urgency.
I know a few others have ridden #1 RC30 so perhaps @Phlik @blow_away could comment on how he found its setup and damping on the road if they can remember. 

[David W]

10 minutes ago, CRM said:

You have no idea how much it helps - thank you.

Like i say, i am far from fast or one to push a bike hard anywhere near its (or my) limits, i am comfortable with my own pace and rarely get suckered into any kind of race or competitive battle when my #1 priority is to bring myself and the bike home in 1 piece. 
As such my career as a racer would be a short one and i am ok with that. however i just live for and love riding my bikes. 
Case in hand, a pal has a 959 Ducati and he is constantly on about changing this and twidling that, and every time i ride his bike it goes from one level of harsh to another and never to me feels right or like a bike i want to ride. 
Oddly my old CBR600 which is now owned by @nobeard is possibly one of the nicest handling bikes i have ever ridden and its road manners were just perfect. 
To be able to achieve a similar feel from the others would be amazing. 
I know the CBR was setup a little on the softer side being a 17 stone gent. and it was great. it inspired confidence and ability even on Michelin Road 3's which i also rated for the road. 
These same tyres on RC#1 work well and while is soft and bouncy at the back it damps well and copes with poor surfaces on the road, it is possibly a little too springy and soft for track or my weight. 
The front end damping and drop feels about right so i wonder if its all the arse end needed to make it turn a little less floppy and with a tad more poise and urgency.
I know a few others have ridden #1 RC30 so perhaps @Phlik @blow_away could comment on how he found its setup and damping on the road if they can remember. 

To be fair, the CBR600 is designed as a roadbike from the off. A homologation bike like all your exotica is the polar opposite of that so you’ll probably never get that floaty, compliant ride out of something designed to win races. My SP2 was bloody horrible below about 80mph and that was with KTech and WP suspension on it. 

[blow_away]

I found the setup on your RC30 to be pretty good for the ride we did.

However, if I was to race it, I feel that I'd need to make changes. And that's the point I suppose, setup for track is a lot different than setup for road use. 

[CMSMJ1]

The RC needed to be put onto the nose for better track riding - it was soft and flabby at the arse.  Forks, under braking,  felt great but the rear wallowed and it pitched under braking.  Felt very short after the long and low OW01 @Mr Tea

Doctor MCJ would prescribe a taller, stiffer rear and with more damping - for track

#1 session at Cadwell whoop - one of my riding highlights that day I can tell thee!!

[Gobert]

9 minutes ago, blow_away said:

I found the setup on your RC30 to be pretty good for the ride we did.

However, if I was to race it, I feel that I'd need to make changes. And that's the point I suppose, setup for track is a lot different than setup for road use. 

Exactly..............it's difficult to find the balance of comfort / ride quality and what works when you start pushing. My 14 is nicer to ride on the road than my BM even though the BM handles better when pushed.

It's taken me a long time to accept that for all round round riding, sports bikes are not the best option.

Riding position also is a big part of rider comfort and again sports bikes might not be the best option for the more-than-a-young-man rider. I still love the latest big bore sportsbikes but it would be a Tuono V4 or 1290 GT type bike for me if I didn't ride on track.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Gobert

[nobeard]

1 hour ago, CRM said:

You have no idea how much it helps - thank you.

Like i say, i am far from fast or one to push a bike hard anywhere near its (or my) limits, i am comfortable with my own pace and rarely get suckered into any kind of race or competitive battle when my #1 priority is to bring myself and the bike home in 1 piece. 
As such my career as a racer would be a short one and i am ok with that. however i just live for and love riding my bikes. 
Case in hand, a pal has a 959 Ducati and he is constantly on about changing this and twidling that, and every time i ride his bike it goes from one level of harsh to another and never to me feels right or like a bike i want to ride. 
Oddly my old CBR600 which is now owned by @nobeard is possibly one of the nicest handling bikes i have ever ridden and its road manners were just perfect. 
To be able to achieve a similar feel from the others would be amazing. 
I know the CBR was setup a little on the softer side being a 17 stone gent. and it was great. it inspired confidence and ability even on Michelin Road 3's which i also rated for the road. 
These same tyres on RC#1 work well and while is soft and bouncy at the back it damps well and copes with poor surfaces on the road, it is possibly a little too springy and soft for track or my weight. 
The front end damping and drop feels about right so i wonder if its all the arse end needed to make it turn a little less floppy and with a tad more poise and urgency.
I know a few others have ridden #1 RC30 so perhaps @Phlik @blow_away could comment on how he found its setup and damping on the road if they can remember. 

I must admit that CBR is a delight on the road.  Pretty sure the Ohlins rear correcty sprung helps enormously.  Out of the 20+ bikes I've had over the years, it's the first one I've thought 'just leave the suspension alone'.

To @David W point, I've an SP1 also, and whilst admittedly it's on stock suspension, I don't think anything would ever make it as compliant on the road as the CBR. Horses for courses to some extent.

[heds954]

@CRM you know some of that money you spend on jaw dropping unobtanium bikes, spend it on getting solid suspension advice from an expert. Teut at TW Suspension, is just up the road from you in Preston, and he set up my KTech cartridges and RazorR shock on my 790 Duke. Now, initially, I found the 790 setup a tad too firm, and it skated across the road. But having swapped a few texts with him, I changed the settings slightly, and it's now almost perfect. There's a little squatting at the rear end, which just means that the rebound on the shock needs upping a touch. But I couldn't be happier with the setup, and the condition of my tyres reflect the soundness of the setup.

You can get the same advice from Teut for £40 (unless he suggests that your bike needs physically changing, other than knob twiddling*). I could have got WP suspension from my local KTM dealership, but I'd only get their level of setup, which would be near enough, but nowhere near the ideal. Why would you accept suspension advice from someone who doesn't specialise in it, who doesn't eat, sleep, dream and earn a good living from it? 

So, 40 knicker a bike. A man of your standing can manage that, can't you?

 

As for the advice that @2639, I couldn't agree more. Suspension is deeply personal. A mate might ride your bike and say that it's nigh on perfect, and it may just be perfect, for them, their weight, their riding style, their way of sitting and manhandling a bike, but not for you. Getting a decent setup is down to you expressing the feelings and being able to break that down and isolate the tangible feelings you get when riding said bike, and having an expert who can tease that out of you, be able to interpret it and then act upon it, repeat until correct, et voila. This is where a 'Teut' comes in very handy.

Just keep in mind that any suspension set up is a compromise, it will never be the ideal for all circumstances. I like my bikes to be set up a little soft, so that they're still good for inclement weather, as I go out in all weathers, all year round. You may want to do similar, or set your bike(s) up for dry weather only. 

 

 

 

*

[porter_jamie]

9 minutes ago, heds954 said:

There's a little squatting at the rear end, which just means that the rebound on the shock needs upping a touch.

you'd think it would be the compression?

 

[heds954]

9 minutes ago, porter_jamie said:

you'd think it would be the compression?

It's this symptom out of the Gobert quote:

 

Symptoms

The ride will feel soft or vague and as speed increases, the rear end will want to wallow and/or weave over bumpy surfaces and traction suffers.
Loss of traction will cause rear end to pogo or chatter due to shock returning too fast on exiting a corner.
Solution

Insufficient rebound - Increase rebound until wallowing and weaving disappears and control and traction are optimized.

 

ETA: So, not squatting under acceleration, but squatting, dragging at the rear end, like a black lab with worms 

Edited April 29, 2020 by heds954

[Phlik]

2 hours ago, CRM said:

You have no idea how much it helps - thank you.

Like i say, i am far from fast or one to push a bike hard anywhere near its (or my) limits, i am comfortable with my own pace and rarely get suckered into any kind of race or competitive battle when my #1 priority is to bring myself and the bike home in 1 piece. 
As such my career as a racer would be a short one and i am ok with that. however i just live for and love riding my bikes. 
Case in hand, a pal has a 959 Ducati and he is constantly on about changing this and twidling that, and every time i ride his bike it goes from one level of harsh to another and never to me feels right or like a bike i want to ride. 
Oddly my old CBR600 which is now owned by @nobeard is possibly one of the nicest handling bikes i have ever ridden and its road manners were just perfect. 
To be able to achieve a similar feel from the others would be amazing. 
I know the CBR was setup a little on the softer side being a 17 stone gent. and it was great. it inspired confidence and ability even on Michelin Road 3's which i also rated for the road. 
These same tyres on RC#1 work well and while is soft and bouncy at the back it damps well and copes with poor surfaces on the road, it is possibly a little too springy and soft for track or my weight. 
The front end damping and drop feels about right so i wonder if its all the arse end needed to make it turn a little less floppy and with a tad more poise and urgency.
I know a few others have ridden #1 RC30 so perhaps @Phlik @blow_away could comment on how he found its setup and damping on the road if they can remember. 

i ride all your bikes well within my limits, I do however remember the RC feeling a little low at the back, but I'd have just got off my blade which I have quite high at the back and running a 55 rear tyre too. The RC was very easy to ride and suspension wise felt fine to me.

[CRM]

Guys - a genuine thank you for the constructive comments. I really do appreciate it.
Its a subject no matter how much i try and "get in to" i seem to switch off and fade away for some reason or it doesnt doesnt sink in. 
Like i said Waveys video was by far the most i had learnt all in one bitesized chunk in 10 mins than i have learned in years on the subject. 

I dropped the RC over at Maxton this morning. Couple of reasons for this.
1 - i used to live 10 mins walk from them and have used them for years on loads of bikes.
2 - i  tied it in with a laptop supply and profile job for a pharma company in Preston brook (2 birds 1 stone)
They are going to dyno it and see whats going on and give me a call with their findings. i echo'd my thoughts on the flabby arse end as everyone else who has ridden it picked up on - so i did diagnose it kind of,

@heds954 good call on getting friendly with someone localish who can also help. Maxton are great however i am guessing there are others more "approachable" and happy to deal with you as a person with unique needs and requirements rather than being tarred as "a racer" so spec everything accordingly. 
Also genuine lol at the black lab with worms
 

[Gobert]

I don't think you can go wrong with Maxton.

I'm not trying to be negative here but have the bikes you are trying to change ever felt "right" on the road in the same way as the CBR600F did? From what I've seen, the riding positions on the RC30 / R7 etc are quite extreme and might be part of the issue.

[CRM]

14 minutes ago, Gobert said:

I don't think you can go wrong with Maxton.

I'm not trying to be negative here but have the bikes you are trying to change ever felt "right" on the road in the same way as the CBR600F did? From what I've seen, the riding positions on the RC30 / R7 etc are quite extreme and might be part of the issue.

Andy - it's ok you can say it mate i have a thick skin lol - i need to lose some fucking weight and get some core strength so i can move a bike with not just ballast weight and the pendulum effect. And be able to actually hang off it and still breath at the same time. 

EDIT - oddly while the R7 was a bit extreme, i think it was also compounded with nerves riding such a rare valuable machine. i no longer feel so wound up riding it, and have loosened right up on it. but i still preferred it with its softer dragging arse feel. 
EDIT again - the RC30 is as comfy as the CBR was honestly. its the RVF that's crippling believe it or not. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by CRM

[David W]

You can’t beat having someone that really knows the topic. I told KTech my weight, how and where I ride, etc when I ordered my forks and shock. Spoke to the Suspension guy at Oulton and he said there’s no point taking money off me because the base setting will be as good as he’d probably get it!

[Gobert]

9 minutes ago, CRM said:

Andy - it's ok you can say it mate i have a thick skin lol - i need to lose some fucking weight and get some core strength so i can move a bike with not just ballast weight and the pendulum effect. And be able to actually hang off it and still breath at the same time. 

EDIT - oddly while the R7 was a bit extreme, i think it was also compounded with nerves riding such a rare valuable machine. i no longer feel so wound up riding it, and have loosened right up on it. but i still preferred it with its softer dragging arse feel. 
EDIT again - the RC30 is as comfy as the CBR was honestly. its the RVF that's crippling believe it or not. 

No, not at all.....................my point was that more upright bikes are more suitable for road riding especially as a) we get a bit older and b) as the roads aren't that wonderful. I've only realised this since I raised the bars on the 14 a bit and had the Tuono.

How do you find the Street Triple?

 

[CRM]

2 minutes ago, Gobert said:

How do you find the Street Triple?

 

I have really enjoyed it Andy. With the baffles fitted its transformed the bike for the better, it fuels better, doesn't hurt my ears and you can rag it without feeling guilty (i like stealthy bikes)
Its comfy and easy to ride. 
Mrs CRM quite likes it too - as much as the CBR ? perhaps but she found the exhaust fatiguing so with the baffles in i am sure she will enjoy it more.
It's seriously fucking heavy though. far heavier than i expected and remembered.