buying advice (tz yamaha related)

[mattyam]

im about to do the sensible thing  as a 40 year old man and spunk a load of cash on a couple of tz's. ive already got a 350 to collect that i know the history ect as its coming from a freind who raced and now parades/ collects all sort of exotic stuff. everything from his trusty old ex bob heath/neil tuxworth harris 350 to harris yzr500's.  im digressing a bit here but he also has a george beale honda 6.  anyway, theres a couple of later 250's ive come across. one is a matching numbers 4dp that was imported here and given a resto/refresh and has done a few parades. jetted rich, basiclly wrapped in cotton wool. the previous owner were also collectors of some nice stuff. another ive found on my doorstep is a spare engine put into a spare chassis (essentially built up as a spare bike for the manx) and belongs to dennis trollope. it has done two laps of the iom since been rebuilt. granted there proper racing miles. i suppose my question is, which would be the one two go for? ive sort of made my mind up on the bike thats been ran in parades ect.  there a couple of grand in it as far as pricing goes but thats not really the deal breaker. id imagine that theres not that many pure race bikes approaching thirty years old that have the same frame/cases they left japan with? 

[Ray Von]

@bogman to the ring a ding phone. 

[bogman]

Both

[mattyam]

55 minutes ago, bogman said:

Both

if only i had the dosh. bit of a wildcard but theres also a tz250a (the one to have out of the reverse cylinders). race history, raced by dennis trollope at the tt way back when. freshly rebuilt in nice condition. similar price to the 4dp's. i just fear that parts maybe thin on the ground given they were a one year run.  a lot of the other models seem to be interchanagble

[bogman]

Then the the parade bike

[dab33]

Just how of interest how would you know if it was matching numbers? 

As I believe that's only a road bike thing surely if would only be listed on something like a V5.

If you want a spare set of 4dp cases let me know as I have a set in my garage.

[Mr Tea]

St Neots motorcycles are hugely experienced in racing and now rebuilding the TZ.  Now I can’t vouch either way as to prices or anything g but it’s worth considering them as a first place to perhaps ask for advice one things like the reverse cylinder parts available?

 

[Jenny Pryde]

8 minutes ago, dab33 said:

Just how of interest how would you know if it was matching numbers? 

As I believe that's only a road bike thing surely if would only be listed on something like a V5.

 

Sometimes, it's not even a roadbikes thing. Many Japanese domestic market  Yamaha road bikes just have a model stamp on the cases, not an individual number.

 

[dab33]

24 minutes ago, Mr Tea said:

St Neots motorcycles are hugely experienced in racing and now rebuilding the TZ.  Now I can’t vouch either way as to prices or anything g but it’s worth considering them as a first place to perhaps ask for advice one things like the reverse cylinder parts available?

 

Andy Sawford is a good guy, very knowledgeable and helpful.

[Mellorp]

Owning and riding a TZ is a chasening experience. The engineering is so simple and effective you think why don't they do that on all road bikes. Riding them will only result in you realising your own riding inadequacies. A TZ, any TZ, to ride them to anywhere near their potential needs a very special talent. 
Having said that riding one is an amazing feeling, you have to work hard riding it, then work harder to get more out of the bike, then recalibrate your brain and ride even harder. Then you might start to scratch the bikes capability. 

Phillip Island
2008 250cc Gilera (Simoncelli) Qualifier 1:32:075

2019 Moto2 Lap record (Rabat) 1:32:609

16 years of improvement and more cc's to go slower.... that's how good a 250GP bike is

[Mr Tea]

10 hours ago, Mellorp said:

Owning and riding a TZ is a chasening experience. The engineering is so simple and effective you think why don't they do that on all road bikes. Riding them will only result in you realising your own riding inadequacies. A TZ, any TZ, to ride them to anywhere near their potential needs a very special talent. 
Having said that riding one is an amazing feeling, you have to work hard riding it, then work harder to get more out of the bike, then recalibrate your brain and ride even harder. Then you might start to scratch the bikes capability. 

Phillip Island
2008 250cc Gilera (Simoncelli) Qualifier 1:32:075

2019 Moto2 Lap record (Rabat) 1:32:609

16 years of improvement and more cc's to go slower.... that's how good a 250GP bike is

Max Oxley does a podcast and in it was asked of all the bikes he has ridden which is the best and would want to ride and keep.

Sure he mentioned some ubber trick and 500 factory bikes he had test ridden but his bike of choice ? A 250 gp bike.

 

[mattyam]

10 hours ago, Mellorp said:

Owning and riding a TZ is a chasening experience. The engineering is so simple and effective you think why don't they do that on all road bikes. Riding them will only result in you realising your own riding inadequacies. A TZ, any TZ, to ride them to anywhere near their potential needs a very special talent. 
Having said that riding one is an amazing feeling, you have to work hard riding it, then work harder to get more out of the bike, then recalibrate your brain and ride even harder. Then you might start to scratch the bikes capability. 

Phillip Island
2008 250cc Gilera (Simoncelli) Qualifier 1:32:075

2019 Moto2 Lap record (Rabat) 1:32:609

16 years of improvement and more cc's to go slower.... that's how good a 250GP bike is

i can only imagine having never ridden a pukka 250. id doubt most mere mortals barely scratch the surface wether its an early beam frame 250 or a 5ke. i think my criteria would be based around what is in the best condition/has the best spares availabilty. granted i know that will very between very scare/unicorn piss model dependant. there seems to be plenty of bits around for the 350's though which is good news, no doubt thatnks to the icgp class among others. i cant wait to experience just how truly shit i am on a bike that was intended for the likes of rossi/koscinski/biaggi ect ect to cut there teeth on

[Mellorp]

Spares for any TZ are eyewateringly expensive, especially the later bikes 5KE or Honda NXA. Although not as fast a bike, the 4DP and 4TW spares are more "affordable".  The later bikes are more tractible and easier to ride fast, but faster riders can go even quicker, if you get what I mean
The 350 is a real animal with a lowish reving engine and a narrow power band, and even narrower wheels. They are the hardest to ride
The 4TW I jsut sold did about 1500km to a crank before needing a rebuild, pistons 300 to 400 miles before the backs start to crack. Cranks can be rebuilt at Grampian or Crathy Cranks, piston kits from Fowlers or DTR. Ceramic replates through Sean @ The Tuning Works
Tyres last quite well, especially if using slicks (Soft front Medium rear) or Conti SM Evo.
Fairings from Spike at Ragged Edge
Suspension is all fully rebuildable. I used Maxton for a full front fork conversion and Reactive Suspension to rebuild a rear shock
You ride one, it laughs at you, you ride it harder, it giggles, you go as fast as you think is possible, and it just shakes it's head with an is that all you've got attitude. They are absolutely awesome bikes to ride

 

[dab33]

10 hours ago, mattyam said:

i can only imagine having never ridden a pukka 250. id doubt most mere mortals barely scratch the surface wether its an early beam frame 250 or a 5ke. i think my criteria would be based around what is in the best condition/has the best spares availabilty. granted i know that will very between very scare/unicorn piss model dependant. there seems to be plenty of bits around for the 350's though which is good news, no doubt thatnks to the icgp class among others. i cant wait to experience just how truly shit i am on a bike that was intended for the likes of rossi/koscinski/biaggi ect ect to cut there teeth on

I hope you manage to find something you want.

With regards to actually riding one, and please don't take this the wrong way, they have to be ridden to a certain level to make them actually work properly.

I know of one individual who wasn't able to do it and continued to chase a set up/ bike issues all the time. Basically he didn't ride it hard enough to make it work properly.

For Tz bits Dennis T is your man, but Andy Sawford is also most helpful and even gets certain NLA parts remanufactured.

[John21]

2 hours ago, dab33 said:

I hope you manage to find something you want.

With regards to actually riding one, and please don't take this the wrong way, they have to be ridden to a certain level to make them actually work properly.

I know of one individual who wasn't able to do it and continued to chase a set up/ bike issues all the time. Basically he didn't ride it hard enough to make it work properly.

For Tz bits Dennis T is your man, but Andy Sawford is also most helpful and even gets certain NLA parts remanufactured.

I second that. My NF5 although not a TZ but very similar, demands to be ridden hard to start working. When we are both on a good day it is heaven, when I fall short, it is like it is asking you to up the pace. Anyway, best bike I have ever had, it will stay with me to the end.Get a TZ and prepare to be amazed.

[mattyam]

i look forward to tz ownership. im under no illusion there high maintanance and not forgiving like proddie stuff, im fairly competent with the spanners and have always had two strokes, just never the real mccoy.  i will jet safe and wont be chasing the last .001hp. i suppose the challenge will be getting my head around the grip level/stupid corner speed and  how unfit i am🤣. 

[mattyam]

the 4dp ive seen is a fairly unmolested bike. cosmesticlly its not my cup o tea as it has a malboro paintjob in the completely wrong colours. white and honda civic red opposed to the white and almost floro orangeish colour  but thats subjective. it does have egt gauge ect so if anything thats handy  as far as seeing whats going on is concerned.  this has 180 miles of aparading on the pistons, 400 on the crank so theres plenty of life left. ill end up aquiring all the bits i need  a couple of times over and give it a refresh. from what im told there so nice to work on

[Johnno]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:51 PM, bogman said:

Both

You need the authority and he's on the piss  

[bogman]

https://postimg.cc/gallery/f3xPfTX

some consumables 

[mattyam]

who do you get your bits from bogman, dennis? i wasnt sure if dtr was still a viable source as i recently came across as set of reed assemblies at a thousand quid. im sure they were for one of the reverse cylinder models though

[Johnno]

17 minutes ago, bogman said:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/f3xPfTX

some consumables 

Consumable some,  might need you.

TZ Yoda.

[bogman]

16 minutes ago, mattyam said:

who do you get your bits from bogman, dennis? i wasnt sure if dtr was still a viable source as i recently came across as set of reed assemblies at a thousand quid. im sure they were for one of the reverse cylinder models though

I use fowlers and Dtr as a last resort.

I mainly use impex jp and buy in small batches to avoid duty.

they can supply some bits that are

listed nla in the uk

and prohibitively expensive in the uk

the use fedex and it’s cheap and is always been here within a week.

an example is the two main out crank bearings that cost the thick end of ninety quid each here but are thirty odd notes in jp.even with duty they’re cheaper 

[bogman]

I also use vince at fondseca

look on fb for the tz groups,lots of knowledgeable and helpful people on there, some wankers too but you get them everywhere 

[mattyam]

2 minutes ago, bogman said:

I use fowlers and Dtr as a last resort.

I mainly use impex jp and buy in small batches to avoid duty.

they can supply some bits that are

listed nla in the uk

and prohibitively expensive in the uk

the use fedex and it’s cheap and is always been here within a week.

an example is the two main out crank bearings that cost the thick end of ninety quid each here but are thirty odd notes in jp.even with duty they’re cheaper 

thats really good to know, thanks. 

[bogman]

Just message me if you want any other information 

[bogman]

As phil(mellophone) stated above they’re not easy to ride properly 

I’ve had mine 7 years and I’ll never reach the bikes max abilities,but it’s bloody good fun,crash well too as I’ve also done twice.

[dab33]

Don't know where abouts your based but for Dyno/set up work go and see Andy Ball at 2T engineering.

Absolutely brilliant guy and really knows his two strokes.

[lesviffer 750]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:57 AM, bogman said:

As phil(mellophone) stated above they’re not easy to ride properly 

I’ve had mine 7 years and I’ll never reach the bikes max abilities,but it’s bloody good fun,crash well too as I’ve also done twice.

^^^^ This, as a comparison, i had a 92 NF5 for a good few years, and a road based nsr250 mc21 with a sprinkling of hrc parts, and around 20hp difference between them, i could rag the arse off the nsr, but if i tried to do the same with the nf5 i know what would have happened, i doubt there's many trackday warriors who could do one justice.

 

[mattyam]

On 4/19/2024 at 2:33 PM, dab33 said:

Don't know where abouts your based but for Dyno/set up work go and see Andy Ball at 2T engineering.

Absolutely brilliant guy and really knows his two strokes.

im sort of in the middle, scunthorpe. ive heard of 2t enineering and its allways positive

[dab33]

1 hour ago, mattyam said:

im sort of in the middle, scunthorpe. ive heard of 2t enineering and its allways positive

Bit of a drive for you then he's down near Banbury. But definitely worth a trip down to get a new bike set down.