Meausring tools for the amateur engine assembler

[John21]

I am looking to build up a small collection of meausring tools needed for engine inspection and assembly, mainly for 2 stroke engines.

After intermmitent research on the net over the last few months, the selection has boiled down to the following:

 

 

Micrometer 50 - 75 mm : This seems to be one of the most important. Mitutoyo is THE choice apparently. Question is should i go for a used one or a new one? 

Bore gauge : Thinking of fetching one from the depths of China.

(https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metric-Dial-Bore-Gauge-50-160mm-Cylinder-Internal-Bore-Measuring-Engine-Gage/254684552187?hash=item3b4c61dbfb:g:NFEAAOSw2S1fV04N )

 

Piston height tool: Only one I know is from VHM 

( https://www.vhm.nl/en/catalog/tools/cylinder-measuring-tools/piston-height-measuring-tools/am34013/infoorder/g+c+a+nr+view )

 

Volume head tool : Again, from VHM

( https://www.vhm.nl/en/catalog/tools/cylinder-measuring-tools/volume-measuring-tools/am36018/infoorder/g+c+a+nr+view )

 

What do you use when building an engine?

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by John21

[porter_jamie]

with a mic it is important to have a setting piece - you should check it every time you use it, so you know its still spot on.

 

the problem with bore gauges is setting it accurately, and the only way to be 100% is a setting ring - its really difficult to do it with a micrometer repeatabably. setting rings are not silly money.

 

what do i use? big hammer. you need to measure squish. you need to measure the bore diameter and you need to measure the piston diameter, all better than 0.02 really. its really tricky imo. a nice bowers mic for measuring bores is a shit ton of cash.

[chance]

most of my stuff is for building 2 strokes. but decent set of verniers, burette for doing head volumes . feeler gauges for ring gaps and piston clearances and then just a dial gauge with an adaptor that screws in the spark plug hole for finding tdc and setting ignition timing. squish is done with either 1mm or 1,2mm solder and verniers

 

[John21]

12 hours ago, chance said:

most of my stuff is for building 2 strokes. but decent set of verniers, burette for doing head volumes . feeler gauges for ring gaps and piston clearances and then just a dial gauge with an adaptor that screws in the spark plug hole for finding tdc and setting ignition timing. squish is done with either 1mm or 1,2mm solder and verniers

 

 

Thanks.

I have been doing ring gaps with feeler gauges and squish with 1mm solder and vernier calipers (wouldn't say they are decent calipers though)

Would like to go for bore gauge / micrometer for getting the piston clearence.

A burette with a tap is all the VHM volume tool is apparently.

 

This is my laughable selection of tools currenlty.

 

 

[John21]

20 hours ago, porter_jamie said:

with a mic it is important to have a setting piece - you should check it every time you use it, so you know its still spot on.

 

the problem with bore gauges is setting it accurately, and the only way to be 100% is a setting ring - its really difficult to do it with a micrometer repeatabably. setting rings are not silly money.

 

what do i use? big hammer. you need to measure squish. you need to measure the bore diameter and you need to measure the piston diameter, all better than 0.02 really. its really tricky imo. a nice bowers mic for measuring bores is a shit ton of cash.

Thanks for bringing  setting rings to my attention, I didn't know they even existed.

I was thinking about getting a gauge block set, but is seems a setting ring is easier to work with.

 

 

- "a nice bowers mic for measuring bores is a shit ton of cash"

- Googles Bower bore gauge

- 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by John21

[porter_jamie]

13 hours ago, chance said:

most of my stuff is for building 2 strokes. but decent set of verniers, burette for doing head volumes . feeler gauges for ring gaps and piston clearances and then just a dial gauge with an adaptor that screws in the spark plug hole for finding tdc and setting ignition timing. squish is done with either 1mm or 1,2mm solder and verniers

 

PVP shinyness. i wonder what one of those in a bike chassis, with the right gearing and so on, would be like? i know people reckon they make 100hp, but what do they really do?

[bogman]

1 hour ago, John21 said:

 

Thanks.

I have been doing ring gaps with feeler gauges and squish with 1mm solder and vernier calipers (wouldn't say they are decent calipers though)

Would like to go for bore gauge / micrometer for getting the piston clearence.

A burette with a tap is all the VHM volume tool is apparently.

 

This is my laughable selection of tools currenlty.

 

 

I only use 1 mm solder as I’ve been advised that using 1.5mm stuff for small squish clearance has a memory.

wether that’s bollocks or not I don’t know.

[John21]

5 minutes ago, bogman said:

I only use 1 mm solder as I’ve been advised that using 1.5mm stuff for small squish clearance has a memory.

wether that’s bollocks or not I don’t know.

Haven't heard of that, but then again if you set your squish lower than 1mm (most of us do I would think) why bother with the 1.5 stuff?

 

[Damnthistinleg]

Where do you live @John21?

If you're anywhere near Sussex, there's a wonderful place for all your fine engineering needs. Most of my machining/test and measuring kit has come from there. It's all excellent industrial quality stuff and usually very cheap.....

https://gandmtools.co.uk/

They sell a lot online but it doesn't even scratch the surface of the awesome stock in their warehouse. I used to live a few miles away and it was a great place to spend a couple of hours on a wet Saturday morning.

[noely02]

43 minutes ago, Damnthistinleg said:

Where do you live @John21?

If you're anywhere near Sussex, there's a wonderful place for all your fine engineering needs. Most of my machining/test and measuring kit has come from there. It's all excellent industrial quality stuff and usually very cheap.....

https://gandmtools.co.uk/

They sell a lot online but it doesn't even scratch the surface of the awesome stock in their warehouse. I used to live a few miles away and it was a great place to spend a couple of hours on a wet Saturday morning.

Wot he said, that place is an Aladdins cave of engineering bits, used them loads, usually spend a while strolling round wanting things that I probably will never use.

[Novarally]

53 minutes ago, Damnthistinleg said:

Where do you live @John21?

If you're anywhere near Sussex, there's a wonderful place for all your fine engineering needs. Most of my machining/test and measuring kit has come from there. It's all excellent industrial quality stuff and usually very cheap.....

https://gandmtools.co.uk/

They sell a lot online but it doesn't even scratch the surface of the awesome stock in their warehouse. I used to live a few miles away and it was a great place to spend a couple of hours on a wet Saturday morning.

Interesting, thanks for that. I've driven by their sign on the A24 a thousand times on my way to jobs in East Grinstead, but never stopped to have a nose around. 

I will do so, once they are open as normal.

[426hemi]

Worth keeping a lookout on some auction sites, I’ve bought numerous things from a auction company called apex auctions in the past.

[John21]

2 hours ago, Damnthistinleg said:

Where do you live @John21?

If you're anywhere near Sussex, there's a wonderful place for all your fine engineering needs. Most of my machining/test and measuring kit has come from there. It's all excellent industrial quality stuff and usually very cheap.....

https://gandmtools.co.uk/

They sell a lot online but it doesn't even scratch the surface of the awesome stock in their warehouse. I used to live a few miles away and it was a great place to spend a couple of hours on a wet Saturday morning.

This seems to be a fine shop indeed, but I am afraid I'm too far away, in Greece actually.

Thanks though, I am already browsing their stuff.

[Damnthistinleg]

I thought you might say somewhere like Birmingham, Cheshire or perhaps even Northern Island but Greece came as a bit of a surprise!

[jollygiant]

Sod what everyone else says, what you need is a......

Fathom rope.
 

[nampus]

17 hours ago, chance said:

most of my stuff is for building 2 strokes. but decent set of verniers, burette for doing head volumes . feeler gauges for ring gaps and piston clearances and then just a dial gauge with an adaptor that screws in the spark plug hole for finding tdc and setting ignition timing. squish is done with either 1mm or 1,2mm solder and verniers

 

That looks interesting, what is it? 

[EXUPDEL]

I've assembled a good set of measuring kit buying stuff from eBay. 

Barely used Mitutoyo mics, bore gauges and a big set of imperial slips.

Wish eBay had been around when I was working as a toolmaker

 

[chance]

9 hours ago, porter_jamie said:

PVP shinyness. i wonder what one of those in a bike chassis, with the right gearing and so on, would be like? i know people reckon they make 100hp, but what do they really do?

I've seen 90 out of ours on a dyno and we have made significant improvements since so id confidently say we are would see at least 95 now. the vm motors have a little bit more but are fragile so 100bhp is very achievable and I have heard of top motors making 105bhp but not seen it myself.

[chance]

5 hours ago, nampus said:

That looks interesting, what is it? 

A pvp252 tandem twin 2 stroke out of a superkart. I build the karts and help run them at meetings 

we also have a fpe engined one which is slightly older but just as quick

these things are mental quick on track. the aero does all properly work so corner speeds are mind bogglng. 

just for comparison we lap cadwell park in about 1 minute 24 seconds - lap record is 1.21 for a kart

 

[John21]

9 minutes ago, chance said:

A pvp252 tandem twin 2 stroke out of a superkart. I build the karts and help run them at meetings 

we also have a fpe engined one which is slightly older but just as quick

these things are mental quick on track. the aero does all properly work so corner speeds are mind bogglng. 

just for comparison we lap cadwell park in about 1 minute 24 seconds - lap record is 1.21 for a kart

 

Never seen one in the flesh, but some onboards are pretty scary. 

These things are fast.

Has anyone put one of those engines in a bike yet?

[John21]

5 hours ago, EXUPDEL said:

I've assembled a good set of measuring kit buying stuff from eBay. 

Barely used Mitutoyo mics, bore gauges and a big set of imperial slips.

Wish eBay had been around when I was working as a toolmaker

 

Ebay seems to be a good source for this kind of stuff.

[chance]

13 minutes ago, John21 said:

Never seen one in the flesh, but some onboards are pretty scary. 

These things are fast.

Has anyone put one of those engines in a bike yet?

its been done. 1980s armstong 250cc gpbikes were powered by the rotax 256 engines which really is what the pvp, fpe and vm engines are an evolution of. also fpe are working on using their engines in bikes but have rotated the gearbox round to make for better packaging.

[Mark/Foggy]

I think a big, through stroke Dial gauge with a long stroke is probably worth having. 

Used Baty or something. Get a machine shop to machine up a brass bush and you can screw it straight into the head, not that I've got around to it.

Finding tdc/bdc in conjunction with a wheel is a piece of piss, but I'm thinking on a 2t getting port heights in a displacement as opposed to an agle might be useful.

[Swarf]

Re micrometers Moore & Wright are perfectly decent gear, Mitutoyo are excellent but unless you're using them every day not worth the premium IMO.

And bore mics I'd look for a Bowers type to cover the size you want, those two pin ones I find a right ballache to get an accurate measurement with. Too easy to get them on the piss. 

Also as said get setting rings/gauges with them, they're reasonably priced from the likes of Cutwel.

Used are fine as long as you have accurate setting bits, they're both fairly easy to adjust.

[Mark/Foggy]

So Bore is probably around 54mm

is this any good?

MITUTOYO 511-106 DIAL BORE GAGE 2-4" RANGE .0001" 2923F-10 | eBay

[bogman]

Some of my measuring stuff

i have the t shaped bore guages  but as mentioned above they’re a bigger to get accurate measurements.

I use the long feelers for piston to bore sizes

also the vhm protrusion guage and a dial guage for tdc/btdc 

[Mark/Foggy]

This should be in the range of what you want to measure. You may need snap (T handles) and a good micrometer  to get your head in the right place, but cheap Chinese is probably good enough for most things.

50-160Mm 0.01Mm Dial Bore Gauge Indicator Diameter Indicators Precision Eng O7G9 194031104094 | eBay

I think is more about getting the cheap stuff and then using the quality tools to check that it's not very wonky.

At some point you have to start trusting the dimensions that you see. 

Is an engine. The tolerances will never get closer than 0.01mm or 4 thou and even cheap tools can make this easily.

 

[coombehouse]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:57 PM, Mark/Foggy said:

This should be in the range of what you want to measure. You may need snap (T handles) and a good micrometer  to get your head in the right place, but cheap Chinese is probably good enough for most things.

50-160Mm 0.01Mm Dial Bore Gauge Indicator Diameter Indicators Precision Eng O7G9 194031104094 | eBay

I think is more about getting the cheap stuff and then using the quality tools to check that it's not very wonky.

At some point you have to start trusting the dimensions that you see. 

Is an engine. The tolerances will never get closer than 0.01mm or 4 thou and even cheap tools can make this easily.

 

Think your a bit off on your tolerances there. 0.01mm is not 4 thou & most cheap tools will not measure this easily. 

[porter_jamie]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:57 PM, Mark/Foggy said:

This should be in the range of what you want to measure. You may need snap (T handles) and a good micrometer  to get your head in the right place, but cheap Chinese is probably good enough for most things.

50-160Mm 0.01Mm Dial Bore Gauge Indicator Diameter Indicators Precision Eng O7G9 194031104094 | eBay

I think is more about getting the cheap stuff and then using the quality tools to check that it's not very wonky.

At some point you have to start trusting the dimensions that you see. 

Is an engine. The tolerances will never get closer than 0.01mm or 4 thou and even cheap tools can make this easily.

 

Honestly. thats dogshite. setting of a micrometer is very difficult btw, not impossible but taking wrong measurements is worse than taking none. you wouldnt trust a dti that was 40 quid let alone a whole waggle stick set.

[EXUPDEL]

24 minutes ago, porter_jamie said:

Honestly. thats dogshite. setting of a micrometer is very difficult btw, not impossible but taking wrong measurements is worse than taking none. you wouldnt trust a dti that was 40 quid let alone a whole waggle stick set.

Agree that those bore gauges will be shite. However setting mics is a doddle if you have a set of slips (gauges) or even some setting pieces.