Firestorm Cooling Problem

[EXUPDEL]

Morning guys, Throwing this out into the forum, a problem I have been wrestling with since I put my Firestorm back on the road a couple of months ago.

Bit of background Bought the bike as a non runner, for a winter project. Rebuilt it and got it running Mot'd etc. Have a separate build thread on here that is long overdue an update.

The problem I am having is with the cooling. Storms seems finicky about filling and bleeding the cooling system because of the 2 side rads. Have done this following the manual and also the way that people on the forums recommend. However it doesn't want to keep the coolant in the system. During a run the overflow tank will overflow to the point of being empty and blowing steam out of the overflow tube. It was like the system wasn't holding pressure. Fitted a new rad cap rated at 1.2 bar. Same problem.

Have done a compression test on the cylinders they get up to about 90 PSI each bit low compared to the manuals recommended 120.

Have done a coolant system pressure test and it holds pressure dropping about 0.1 bar over 10 mins. Spotted a weeping hose joint nipped that up.

Have run the bike up in the garage Fan kicks in at 105deg as it should.

Went for a run yesterday temps got up to 125 and the fan wouldn't kick in. This was after stopping for petrol and restarting the bike plumes of steam were coming out of the exhaust. After riding for a bit this stopped and when I started the bike this morning no steam.

So my train of thought is that one of the head gaskets has gone. This is allowing the combustion to pressurise the coolant system higher than the rad cap can cope with which is pushing coolant into the overflow tank. The amount of coolant being pushed out is so much that the coolant level is dropping in the rads below the fan switch hence why the fan isn't kicking in.

When I rebuilt the bike I broke an exhaust stud in the front head so had to take the head off to drill that out. When I rebuilt it I fitted a new pattern head gasket. All cylinder bolts were torqued up to the manual.

So my questions.

Does a blown head gasket seem a reasonable cause of my problem? What else could it be? cracked head , cracked liner? How would I spot this?

Are pattern head gaskets ok or would using Honda ones always be the best way forward?

Am I missing something completely different?

I am really struggling with this so any expertise people could share would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 28, 2020 by EXUPDEL

[lorenzo]

Are you certain that the thermostat is working OK all of the time?

[EXUPDEL]

Yeah am  fairly certain that the thermostat and fan switch are working ok. They seem to do their jobs at the temps the manual states. TBF I haven't replaced them so could be easily swapped out.

[EXUPDEL]

Just to be clear when I check the coolant level by removing the Rad cap after riding it needs between 1/2 to 1 litres of coolant to fill it and the overflow tank is empty. Like I say something is pushing massive amounts of coolant out of the system and out of the overflow. And thats after a 10 mile ride where the temp gauge hasn't gone above 105 where I filled the rad before I set off. If I pull over to the side of the road after about 10 miles the overflow tank is full and boiling and the overflow pipe dropping coolant on the road.

[Elohesra]

https://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=475347

[EXUPDEL]

9 minutes ago, Elohesra said:

https://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=475347

Thanks Interesting read. Number of failure modes discussed but no one seems to have my problem which is losing coolant. 

[lorenzo]

How much does a water pump cost? Can you just take the cover off it and see if the pump spins with the engine when you turn it over? I'm trying to come up with ideas as to why it's boiling over so readily that don't involve doing the head gasket.

Thinking about it, a waterpump or thermostat sounds pretty logical: Temp sensor is in the head I guess? No water flowing around the radiator (or not much more than thermo-syphoning action or whatever it's called) means the fan never kicks in despite the temp switch being OK, yet the engine gets toasty and boils over. That says coolant isn't circulating very well. Can you get your hands to the rads with those little side fairings on, see if they're both scalding hot? If not, you've either got air in there or a circulation issue.

Edited June 28, 2020 by lorenzo

[EXUPDEL]

Just now, lorenzo said:

How much does a water pump cost? Can you just take the cover off it and see if the pump spins with the engine when you turn it over? I'm trying to come up with ideas as to why it's boiling over so readily that don't involve doing the head gasket.

@lorenzo Thanks bud I appreciate that. The pump is direct drive from the crank and is spinning. It is definitely circulating the coolant am not fazed by doing the head gaskets. I am more concerned that its not the solution to my problem. I don't really want to disturb them if there is no reason too. The bike runs fine apart from this and I cant think of any other reason its dumping coolant in the volumes it is other than the head gasket leaking combustion into the cooling circuit and pushing it out through the overflow.

[lorenzo]

I had an issue on my VFR where the pump had sheared the two bolts which hold it onto the crank, which then meant it gradually worked its way off the end of the drive, but I think you'd notice that. It didn't take long to overheat though, maybe 10 minutes or so from cold.
Is all of the radiator hot, top to bottom, is there any gas in them?

[EXUPDEL]

That's the problem. I fill the rad as per instructions, go for a ride and within 10 miles coolant is coming out of the overflow pipe. when I get home and let it cool check the rad and it takes about 1/2 to 1 litre to top up. originally I thought it was trapped air in the system but its every ride and pretty sure that the trapped air would have shifted itself after 800 miles. then I changed the rad cap Thought the old one was lifting too early and not allowing the system to pressurise. same problem.

Like I say its like something is pumping 'air' (gas)  into the system and pushing the coolant out. There's no coolant in the oil or sight glass.

Its a honda FFS. I have 2 VFR 750's and a vfr1200 and they need no maintainence. Topping coolant up after every ride is soooo not a Honda.

[Rich]

Are there any signs of oilyness in the coolant at all? Does the coolant smell fumey? Could always do a sniff test as a last resort.

[Gobert23]

On the grounds of:

1. Loss of coolant (and the vapour out the exhausts)

2. The compression test

Sounds like a head gasket(s)

Given that 'Firestorm' race applications still retained the side-mounted rad's, cooling shouldn't be an issue.

The fan not kicking in, sounds like a separate issue (and may have contributed to the over-heating and gasket(s) getting cooked?)

[MonkeyJim]

Years ago I had a similar problem with my R1.

When I bought it, it had been in storage for around 4 years.

Similar if not identical problems to what you say.  It wasn't overheating but would push coolant into the expansion bottle, until that filled and then overflowed.

I replaced the temp.sender and fan switch (even though both were ok); new radiator cap and even tried a manual fan switch but all to no avail. 

There was no oil in coolant or vice versa.

In the end I had to give in and took it to my local Yam dealers.  They couldn't trace the problem until eventually they dropped the engine and took off the head & found that one of the dowels in the head had corroded (from storage) and put a pin-prick hole in the head gasket.

That was just enough to over-pressurise the coolant system without giving any other symptoms.

HTH

[EXUPDEL]

@Gobert23 Thanks for the tips. I think the fan not kicking in is because the coolant that is pushed out lowers the level below the fan switch in the rad so when it's not covered in liquid it doesnt trigger the fan.

@MonkeyJim Your reply is the first thing I have read that sounds in anyway similar to my problem Thanks for running through your process. Makes me think changing head gaskets and making sure all surfaces are immaculate and if necessary getting them skimmed to make sure they are flat is the way to go. Very much appreciated 😊

[Mark/Foggy]

Did you skim the head? you rebuilt it but if that gasket won't seal, maybe it's not so flat, 

[EXUPDEL]

@Mark/Foggy No I didnt First time I have changed head gasket Maybe I wasn't as fussy with it as I needed to be 🤔

[Mark/Foggy]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-VTR1000-VTR-1000-FIRESTORM-ENGINE-YEAR-1998/153463942797?hash=item23bb29ee8d:g:K9AAAOSw8mxc2qub

I'd do this....investigating could put you off the road and cost more

[EXUPDEL]

14 minutes ago, Mark/Foggy said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-VTR1000-VTR-1000-FIRESTORM-ENGINE-YEAR-1998/153463942797?hash=item23bb29ee8d:g:K9AAAOSw8mxc2qub

I'd do this....investigating could put you off the road and cost more

Thanks @Mark/Foggy Not at the stage of giving up on this engine yet. I bought it as a project so this comes with the territory. Good learning experience. 

[Mark/Foggy]

Yeah, but engine has to come out, so making it work is a smart idea.

 

[wavey]

If you could get a leak down tester that might help diagnose where the problem lies. Sounds like a head gasket but would be nice to be sure which head

[EXUPDEL]

Thank @wavey. I ordered some oem gaskets from Dave Silvers this week. stripped both heads off last night. The front head with the pattern gasket looked OK The only thing of note was it was deformed in a section over the water jacket. Maybe that allowed some gases through between the 2 layers of the gasket.  Rear head looked fine.  Have used a big stone on all 4 mating surfaces. They have cleaned up ok. Very little corrosion. Will decide whether to get them skimmed by Monday. Gonna strip valves out Clean them up and lap into the seats. Replace the valve stem seals. Reassemble and check clearances. and then put it all back together. Fingers and everything else crossed that should sort it

[wavey]

8 hours ago, EXUPDEL said:

Thank @wavey. I ordered some oem gaskets from Dave Silvers this week. stripped both heads off last night. The front head with the pattern gasket looked OK The only thing of note was it was deformed in a section over the water jacket. Maybe that allowed some gases through between the 2 layers of the gasket.  Rear head looked fine.  Have used a big stone on all 4 mating surfaces. They have cleaned up ok. Very little corrosion. Will decide whether to get them skimmed by Monday. Gonna strip valves out Clean them up and lap into the seats. Replace the valve stem seals. Reassemble and check clearances. and then put it all back together. Fingers and everything else crossed that should sort it

Sounds like a proper job. I'd probably try to find a straight edge and just check they're flat. Fairly unusual for them to warp really 

[coombehouse]

If the heads are warped enough to need skimming then I would replace them. When a head warps badly, it's not just the sealing face. It also throws out the cam bearing alignment. I've seen cams seize & even break more than once on skimmed heads (on cars)

[EXUPDEL]

Completely stripped the heads yesterday. Have stoned them with a big stone. I am confident they are flat however there are a couple of circular witness Mark's that are still there. I can feel them with a finger nail. I am gonna get the heads skimmed mainly to stop my paranoia. Should clean up in a few "thou. 

Have lapped each of the valves lightly with fine paste. Hopefully shouldn't be to long before I can start rebuilding.

[EXUPDEL]

OK so I have finished the top end rebuild of my firestorm. I managed to get the heads skimmed locally for £40. Once I got them back I lapped each of the valves again as I rebuilt them into the heads. All the shims needed changing. Once the heads were rebuilt I fitted the new OEM gaskets and torqued down the heads. checked, double checked and Triple checked the cam timing and then ran the bike off the starter to make sure everything was aligned, cam chains were on their sprockets and tensioned and that the oil was getting to the head.

Put the rads back on the bike and re-assembled the carbs and air box. Finally it was time to put some fuel through it. Bike started and ran ok. Didn't let it get to hot. as it was running I filled the coolant into the rads. usingthe pump to prime the system and hopefully make sure their were no air locks. Once that was done I let the bike cool down and topped up the radiator and the overflow bottle. Ran the bike up again to temp. No leaks bikes running fine and fan kicked in as it should all seemed to be going well.

Weather was rubbish so wasn't in a rush to take it out. Left it overnight and had a niggling feeling that even though I had torqued up the cylinder head bolts I hadn't done the 4 screws that are located in the cam chain tunnels.

Good job I checked because they were not even nipped up. The front cylinder was a real ball ache to get at with the rads and oil cooler in place.

First ride was scary. This is my first V twin so I find it hard to differentiate between vibes that are its 'character' and something that seriously wrong. anyway did 30 local miles and bike seemed to be running cooler. Couple of slow rides through towns temp got up but never enough to get the fan to kick in. checked the header tank and that was full but not boiling and nothing was coming out of the overflow.  got home and left it ticking over. fan kicked at 103 and dumped a load of heat then cut out again. the header tank wasn't boiling so I dared to think I might have solved my problem.

Saturday just gone decided that I trusted it the bike and more importantly my repairs to do a longer ride. Ended up doing 300 miles. No problems. Bike ran and cooled just as I would expect it too. Its a bit lurchy at low speed and small throttle opening so I suspect it might need a bit of dyno time to get it set up. But other than that All seems good.

Biggest engine job I have ever done. Well pleased.

Thanks @MonkeyJim for pointing me in the right direction.

[MonkeyJim]

16 minutes ago, EXUPDEL said:

OK so I have finished the top end rebuild of my firestorm. I managed to get the heads skimmed locally for £40. Once I got them back I lapped each of the valves again as I rebuilt them into the heads. All the shims needed changing. Once the heads were rebuilt I fitted the new OEM gaskets and torqued down the heads. checked, double checked and Triple checked the cam timing and then ran the bike off the starter to make sure everything was aligned, cam chains were on their sprockets and tensioned and that the oil was getting to the head.

Put the rads back on the bike and re-assembled the carbs and air box. Finally it was time to put some fuel through it. Bike started and ran ok. Didn't let it get to hot. as it was running I filled the coolant into the rads. usingthe pump to prime the system and hopefully make sure their were no air locks. Once that was done I let the bike cool down and topped up the radiator and the overflow bottle. Ran the bike up again to temp. No leaks bikes running fine and fan kicked in as it should all seemed to be going well.

Weather was rubbish so wasn't in a rush to take it out. Left it overnight and had a niggling feeling that even though I had torqued up the cylinder head bolts I hadn't done the 4 screws that are located in the cam chain tunnels.

Good job I checked because they were not even nipped up. The front cylinder was a real ball ache to get at with the rads and oil cooler in place.

First ride was scary. This is my first V twin so I find it hard to differentiate between vibes that are its 'character' and something that seriously wrong. anyway did 30 local miles and bike seemed to be running cooler. Couple of slow rides through towns temp got up but never enough to get the fan to kick in. checked the header tank and that was full but not boiling and nothing was coming out of the overflow.  got home and left it ticking over. fan kicked at 103 and dumped a load of heat then cut out again. the header tank wasn't boiling so I dared to think I might have solved my problem.

Saturday just gone decided that I trusted it the bike and more importantly my repairs to do a longer ride. Ended up doing 300 miles. No problems. Bike ran and cooled just as I would expect it too. Its a bit lurchy at low speed and small throttle opening so I suspect it might need a bit of dyno time to get it set up. But other than that All seems good.

Biggest engine job I have ever done. Well pleased.

Thanks @MonkeyJim for pointing me in the right direction.

that is all of the awesome.  delighted to have been of assistance, Sir.

Lurchy at low speed and small throttle openings and vibes of varying degrees are 'character' and part of V-twin 

the RC8R is a pig at around 30mph but the experience on the throttle is a thing of terror and joy

[EXUPDEL]

11 minutes ago, MonkeyJim said:

that is all of the awesome.  delighted to have been of assistance, Sir.

Lurchy at low speed and small throttle openings and vibes of varying degrees are 'character' and part of V-twin 

the RC8R is a pig at around 30mph but the experience on the throttle is a thing of terror and joy

Cheers bud. Yeah all part of the learning curve for me. Been riding Vfr's since 2003 and though they are not inline 4 smooth a v twin is a whole new experience. At least I can now get on with it without being to worried anything terminal is wrong with the bike.