plob Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 2003 R1. Pretty basic question, wanting to replace front pads and replace with the best available (where best does not mean longest lasting) cheers folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Plob, if you have a check through the posts we had a similar discussion about a month ago. The concensus seemed to be for using OE pads if you're still on your OE discs. My personal favorites for track are Bendix CarbonMatrix, absolutely brilliant but need the higher temps of track use to work well. I've also got West Performance (PFM) ductile iron discs. They can haul my fat ass up to an abrupt standstill which is testerment alone to their ability. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyJim Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Plob, if you have a check through the posts we had a similar discussion about a month ago. The concensus seemed to be for using OE pads if you're still on your OE discs. My personal favorites for track are Bendix CarbonMatrix, absolutely brilliant but need the higher temps of track use to work well. I've also got West Performance (PFM) ductile iron discs. They can haul my fat ass up to an abrupt standstill which is testerment alone to their ability. Pete Plob - I'm using OE pads in my '99 model. For all round use they are hard to beat. I had a couple of old Fazer 600's before the R1 and tried all manner of different makes, but TBH I didn't find any which were comprehensively better than the OE pads. Which are, I believe, made by Nissin. Performance Friction 95 compound are very well regarded for the R1's, but I was advised they were more track biased, ie they are awesome once up to temperature, but are crap until then and are particularly scary in the wet. Until now I've been using the OE pads on track and had no problems at all with them, in fact the braking is bloody brilliant, and I like to brake hard. But I've got some PF95's waiting in the garage already for when my dymag/PFM iron disc combo of goodness gets used this year... can't wait to try it out mmmmm pic whoreing you say? oh, ok then if you insist sorry I couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I know this might not be helpful, but just as a matter of while we're taliking about it etc, has anybody ever had any pads on a modern bike that could be called 'bad'? I tend to buy EBC's simply because they're easily avaiable and I know that they're plenty decent enough for me, I guess they're fairly middle ground in terms of performance, but I'd be interested to know if you can actually buy 'shit pads'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partymoose Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I know this might not be helpful, but just as a matter of while we're taliking about it etc, has anybody ever had any pads on a modern bike that could be called 'bad'? I tend to buy EBC's simply because they're easily avaiable and I know that they're plenty decent enough for me, I guess they're fairly middle ground in terms of performance, but I'd be interested to know if you can actually buy 'shit pads'? You do say modern, but the pads on my ZXR are frankly atrocious. No idea what make they are, were on the bike when I bought it. The thing just doesn't want to stop, however hard you pull the lever, and if I'm carrying a pillion I have to be able to see about 3 miles up the road if I want to stop in time for anything. Course, this might be because of how heavy the old girl is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtrkarl Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 ive put ebc hh in my r1 and they do feel sronger than oe pads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I know this might not be helpful, but just as a matter of while we're taliking about it etc, has anybody ever had any pads on a modern bike that could be called 'bad'? I tend to buy EBC's simply because they're easily avaiable and I know that they're plenty decent enough for me, I guess they're fairly middle ground in terms of performance, but I'd be interested to know if you can actually buy 'shit pads'? To find out, please go to Newark autojumble and buy some of the finest armstrong 'racing' pads. You will outbrake everyone. Once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 You do say modern, but the pads on my ZXR are frankly atrocious. No idea what make they are, were on the bike when I bought it. The thing just doesn't want to stop, however hard you pull the lever, and if I'm carrying a pillion I have to be able to see about 3 miles up the road if I want to stop in time for anything. Course, this might be because of how heavy the old girl is... Welcome to the world of Kawasaki 6 pots. Rebuild everything, fit new pads/lines/seals, make an improvement that lasts for 3 days, then throw a tantrum and buy decent calipers (whilst pissed on ebay...still in the garage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Welcome to the world of Kawasaki 6 pots. Rebuild everything, fit new pads/lines/seals, make an improvement that lasts for 3 days, then throw a tantrum and buy decent calipers (whilst pissed on ebay...still in the garage). Mmm I've thought about fitting a breathalizer to my PC to stop me doing just this, Fooking 6 pots on kwackers really are the shittist known calipers known to mankind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budda Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Not if kept in tip top condition, though I fully agree that they go off quick if left to their own devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plob Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 cheers for the pointers and advice, tempted to try EBC HH, the bike will be ridden most of the time at the ring, and so very unlikely to be used in the rain. more suggestions welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Not a suggestion I know but, if your gonna be doing most of your miles at the ring, I reckon the HH will fuck your discs within the summer. They really are very, very abrasive. Wal Saunders at West Performance tried to explain the pro's and con's for discs/ pad combo's but the one thing he did make easy to understand was "sintered pads will fuck your discs quicker". Wal also explained that HH sintered "feel" as though they are giving a stronger, better braking force, but in reality, the HH sintered will only give better initial bite, compared to organic pads. Over the whole braking process, a good organic pad will give as good a braking force 'cos as the braking process continue's the organic pad will become better and the HH will fade. So in essence, yes HH give great bite but don't actually work any better than OE or good organic pads AND also "fuck your discs quicker". Not my words, his. Pete Sorry as an aside, I'm at the Grune Holle (staying at sliders) over 26,27,28 May. When you over? would be nice to meet up with some peeps from the PB forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plob Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Not a suggestion I know but, if your gonna be doing most of your miles at the ring, I reckon the HH will fuck your discs within the summer. They really are very, very abrasive. Wal Saunders at West Performance tried to explain the pro's and con's for discs/ pad combo's but the one thing he did make easy to understand was "sintered pads will fuck your discs quicker". Wal also explained that HH sintered "feel" as though they are giving a stronger, better braking force, but in reality, the HH sintered will only give better initial bite, compared to organic pads. Over the whole braking process, a good organic pad will give as good a braking force 'cos as the braking process continue's the organic pad will become better and the HH will fade. So in essence, yes HH give great bite but don't actually work any better than OE or good organic pads AND also "fuck your discs quicker". Not my words, his. Pete Sorry as an aside, I'm at the Grune Holle (staying at sliders) over 26,27,28 May. When you over? would be nice to meet up with some peeps from the PB forum sounds like the kind of advice i need, brill! cheers. i'm over 4th and 5th april and 1st to 3rd may...hopefully more dates to be confirmed. don't think i'll be there twice in may (mrs plob will think i'm taking the piss). might see you over there later in the year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Not a suggestion I know but, if your gonna be doing most of your miles at the ring, I reckon the HH will fuck your discs within the summer. They really are very, very abrasive. Wal Saunders at West Performance tried to explain the pro's and con's for discs/ pad combo's but the one thing he did make easy to understand was "sintered pads will fuck your discs quicker". Wal also explained that HH sintered "feel" as though they are giving a stronger, better braking force, but in reality, the HH sintered will only give better initial bite, compared to organic pads. Over the whole braking process, a good organic pad will give as good a braking force 'cos as the braking process continue's the organic pad will become better and the HH will fade. So in essence, yes HH give great bite but don't actually work any better than OE or good organic pads AND also "fuck your discs quicker". Not my words, his. Pete Sorry as an aside, I'm at the Grune Holle (staying at sliders) over 26,27,28 May. When you over? would be nice to meet up with some peeps from the PB forum Agreed, but would point out that OE pads are usually sintered -I appreciate your stating EBC HH in that case (and I also think they are the worst), but what you have said applies in some degree to all sintered products. It's also important to note organic pads are useless in the wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Mmm I've thought about fitting a breathalizer to my PC to stop me doing just this, Fooking 6 pots on kwackers really are the shittist known calipers known to mankind To be fair this is how I have enough spares to build complete bikes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Agreed, but would point out that OE pads are usually sintered -I appreciate your stating EBC HH in that case (and I also think they are the worst), but what you have said applies in some degree to all sintered products. It's also important to note organic pads are useless in the wet. This is Wal Saunders opinion of West Performance and in my opinion, the guy really knows what he's talking about. I'd disagree with you with organic pads and "crap in the wet" as both the OE pads and the Ferodo Platinum pads I use for my stainless road rotors work fine. The OE supplied pads are best for your rotors if their OE rotors. Thats what was designed to work together. The mix of pad may be Sintered in as far as there's gash metal mixed with the organic material, its just the percentage and type of gash metal that makes up the "sintered" element that makes all the difference. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackdaybob Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 I use EBC HH on my 5pw R1. Good enough for road and moderate track use I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 This is Wal Saunders opinion of West Performance and in my opinion, the guy really knows what he's talking about. I'd disagree with you with organic pads and "crap in the wet" as both the OE pads and the Ferodo Platinum pads I use for my stainless road rotors work fine. The OE supplied pads are best for your rotors if their OE rotors. Thats what was designed to work together. The mix of pad may be Sintered in as far as there's gash metal mixed with the organic material, its just the percentage and type of gash metal that makes up the "sintered" element that makes all the difference. Pete Wal does know his stuff, and is a sound bloke too. Keeps taunting me with a ride in his sidecar...round the TT circuit! What bike do you have? If it's anthing fast I suspect the OE is sintered. Ferodo would not recommend Platinum for year round road (ie wet) use on the front. I'd disagree that OE pads are best for OE discs. I've had benefits in performance, cost and wear using aftermarket. You will find some branded pads are infact identical to OE supply. In respect to Wal's comments, I suspect this is in relation to use with his (excellent) ductile iron rotors, which can only be used with an organic compound pad as sintered would eat them. I dream of a full on PFM set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorenzo Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 The OE supplied pads are best for your rotors if their OE rotors. Thats what was designed to work together. Obviously good pads are good pads, there's no two ways about it, but as for that they're somehow matched on the basis that they're OE isn't especially true. By the same logic OE tyres, chain and sprocket etc etc are best for your bike. You know that you'll get a decent standard with OE kit on 99% of items but to say it's designed isn't correct. Most parts are there because they fall within design tolerances and specs, plus they fall into a certain budget criteria too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsp Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 I use Vesrah HH pads, I think they're brilliant. Retail at about £20 per calliper. Incidently, Vesrah have just released some super duper pads to the public... Cost £145 per calliper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Wal does know his stuff, and is a sound bloke too. Keeps taunting me with a ride in his sidecar...round the TT circuit! What bike do you have? If it's anthing fast I suspect the OE is sintered. Ferodo would not recommend Platinum for year round road (ie wet) use on the front. I'd disagree that OE pads are best for OE discs. I've had benefits in performance, cost and wear using aftermarket. You will find some branded pads are infact identical to OE supply. In respect to Wal's comments, I suspect this is in relation to use with his (excellent) ductile iron rotors, which can only be used with an organic compound pad as sintered would eat them. I dream of a full on PFM set up. My bike is an SV1000s. I can't remember what were fitted as OE pads as I bought the bike from new almost 5 years ago! I've continually tweaked it with better suspension and JHS Racing in bristol tuned it so its now pushing 116bhp with 70lb torque. I use my bike for everything. Commuting, trackday (fast group), touring (when she'll let me get away) and use on the ring (last time there 8.20 pace). I've never had any problems with using platinum pads in any weather. Their temperature range is vast and happily provides good stopping no matter what. See below taken from the Ferodo Site : "Ferodo Platinum motorcycle brake pads are manufactured from the World Super Bike racing compound CP911, using technology gained from Ferodo’s world racing program. The material has been developed using Ferodo’s unique vulcanization process, resulting in consistent braking torque and longer pad life." "Platinum pads manufactured with original equipment homologated processes are suitable for stainless steel or cast iron discs. Platinum’s alloy-coated backplates reduce corrosion and keep pistons from sticking to heated paint. They offer the highest friction coefficient available in organic road material, and they perform equally well in wet or dry conditions." As far as Wal's comments. Yes he did state never to use any Sintered pads on his iron rotors (which I don't). But, Wal did say sintered pads will chew your discs quicker and when tested against regular pads don't work any better over the full braking process. He also mentioned something about Brembo re-thinking their sintered pads as, guess what? they were chewing THEIR discs too quickly. The iron rotors are effing brilliant and if you need to replace your current set, I cannot recommend them highly enough. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 My bike is an SV1000s. I can't remember what were fitted as OE pads as I bought the bike from new almost 5 years ago! I've continually tweaked it with better suspension and JHS Racing in bristol tuned it so its now pushing 116bhp with 70lb torque. I use my bike for everything. Commuting, trackday (fast group), touring (when she'll let me get away) and use on the ring (last time there 8.20 pace). I've never had any problems with using platinum pads in any weather. Their temperature range is vast and happily provides good stopping no matter what. See below taken from the Ferodo Site : "Ferodo Platinum motorcycle brake pads are manufactured from the World Super Bike racing compound CP911, using technology gained from Ferodo’s world racing program. The material has been developed using Ferodo’s unique vulcanization process, resulting in consistent braking torque and longer pad life." "Platinum pads manufactured with original equipment homologated processes are suitable for stainless steel or cast iron discs. Platinum’s alloy-coated backplates reduce corrosion and keep pistons from sticking to heated paint. They offer the highest friction coefficient available in organic road material, and they perform equally well in wet or dry conditions." As far as Wal's comments. Yes he did state never to use any Sintered pads on his iron rotors (which I don't). But, Wal did say sintered pads will chew your discs quicker and when tested against regular pads don't work any better over the full braking process. He also mentioned something about Brembo re-thinking their sintered pads as, guess what? they were chewing THEIR discs too quickly. The iron rotors are effing brilliant and if you need to replace your current set, I cannot recommend them highly enough. Pete I would, and Ferodo would not put organic pads on a road bike to be used in the wet...I had technical training at Ferodo in Italy. I agree organic have a greater initial bite and are more consistent (have the graphs somewhere), however as PB's own JR descovered (then promptly told the Japaneese who fitted sintered the next year) sintered pads overcome the initial lag in the wet. Organic have their place...in the dry, on the track, on lower powered road stuff year round...most retailers will sell you sintered pads for the front and organic for the rear, and if a customer quibbles that next door will do them £1 cheaper they MAY advise fitment of the cheaper Platinum organic pads...but this is to get a sale and you will effectively have lower spec than your OE supplied sintered pad. I presume Wal also advised that Brembo have problems as their discs are shit quality...customers want shiny things, so only those in the know go for the 'rusty' ductile iron options. Like most of the TT runners. I can't argue with your results...but please be aware of the potential problems, that all I'm saying. Just thought...this applies to stainless discs (OE) only...if you have some of Wal's iron rotors then organic all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 smokes 4 ever Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Not a suggestion I know but, if your gonna be doing most of your miles at the ring, I reckon the HH will fuck your discs within the summer. They really are very, very abrasive. Wal Saunders at West Performance tried to explain the pro's and con's for discs/ pad combo's but the one thing he did make easy to understand was "sintered pads will fuck your discs quicker". Wal also explained that HH sintered "feel" as though they are giving a stronger, better braking force, but in reality, the HH sintered will only give better initial bite, compared to organic pads. Over the whole braking process, a good organic pad will give as good a braking force 'cos as the braking process continue's the organic pad will become better and the HH will fade. So in essence, yes HH give great bite but don't actually work any better than OE or good organic pads AND also "fuck your discs quicker". Not my words, his. Pete Sorry as an aside, I'm at the Grune Holle (staying at sliders) over 26,27,28 May. When you over? would be nice to meet up with some peeps from the PB forum All modern OE pads are sintered The days of organic pads are long gone (on OE discs that is) I specifically asked about high wear rates of HH pads to the Dunlopd (DP) tech rep - he says its a myth (as I was trying to buy their std DP GG compund for GSXR calipers and they only make the SDP compund (HH+), and stated Dunlopad HH+ pads do not wear discs any faster than the std GG compound As Dunlopad invented the sintered pad I have no reason to not beleive him I've used both GG & HH+ compund on various bikes and never had disc wearing issues Never had aftermarket discs so can't comment on what they do to Iron discs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Wouldn't be much of a forum if we agreed all the time eh. What floats your boat, and all that. My stuff works for me, I've used sintered (EBC HH) prior to getting my West Performance set-up and they were good on track. Were they any better than my OE pads? I truly wouldn't be able to say. My iron rotor set-up definately is. Be that using my platinum pads on the road, or my carbonmatrix on track. I would happily go up against any set-up on any other bike and I'm confident my brakes will work better, for much longer without fade. This set-up, first recommended by The Baron and then after talking to Wal, is simply the best. Why would I go against his advice when discussing brake pads? He has no tie with any manufacturer, he'll give all the advice you want and he's a really good bloke. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemonkey Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Not a suggestion I know but, if your gonna be doing most of your miles at the ring, I reckon the HH will fuck your discs within the summer. They really are very, very abrasive. Wal Saunders at West Performance tried to explain the pro's and con's for discs/ pad combo's but the one thing he did make easy to understand was "sintered pads will fuck your discs quicker". Wal also explained that HH sintered "feel" as though they are giving a stronger, better braking force, but in reality, the HH sintered will only give better initial bite, compared to organic pads. Over the whole braking process, a good organic pad will give as good a braking force 'cos as the braking process continue's the organic pad will become better and the HH will fade. So in essence, yes HH give great bite but don't actually work any better than OE or good organic pads AND also "fuck your discs quicker". Not my words, his. Pete Sorry as an aside, I'm at the Grune Holle (staying at sliders) over 26,27,28 May. When you over? would be nice to meet up with some peeps from the PB forum Personally I like the bite, it gives me confidence. Without having any method of measuring braking torque I can't argue with the amount of power on organic/sintered pads. I suspect you'd find a wide variation in both styles of construction. .....But I'd go for sintered on the basis of the subjective feel even if the braking torque is similar, plus I've found them to be a ton better in the wet and I often ride in the wet. Another point.... Hands up how many of you guys do enough miles to wear out discs with or without sintered pads! ....Thought so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Hands up how many of you guys do enough miles to wear out discs with or without sintered pads! ....Thought so. 10000+ miles a year, had to replace my OE rotors around 24000 if my memory serves me right. Was starting to get real bad vibration through the bars when braking. I'd already purchased my iron discs before needing to change my OE's so used them for a little while then bought some of Wal's stainless rotors to go with another pair of centres I'd got from him (long story and one he doesn't want me to repeat) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemonkey Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 10000+ miles a year, had to replace my OE rotors around 24000 if my memory serves me right. Was starting to get real bad vibration through the bars when braking. I'd already purchased my iron discs before needing to change my OE's so used them for a little while then bought some of Wal's stainless rotors to go with another pair of centres I'd got from him (long story and one he doesn't want me to repeat) Pete Well that's one! Fair play! Seriously though. I suspect most riders cover far fewer miles. I tend to do 2000-4000 per year and I have a few bikes! So I never seem to wear discs out. I suspect most riders will not have to replace discs ever. I love the cast iron discs on my Guzzi and really they make it a bit too easy to lock the front once the brakes are delinked. I this is due to weight distribution. (Too far back.) Back in the 80's these must have been head and shoulders above all the stuff fitted to the japanese bikes. What a shame that the manufacturers fit stainless discs instead of iron as OE. It's just like apples in supermarkets. They are selected for their appearance and keeping qualities. If they taste like shit it doesn't matter. - They sell them easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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