porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I think they call it crowd sourcing, or some such bollocks. A silly idea has been rattling about in my head for a few months. Just for fun, let us pretend we are all going to design and build and run a racing bike, from scratch. A forum bike. There is enough people on here with interesting ideas that something quite good just might come of it, you never know. Obviously i would want to do a supermono, cos thats what i know, and proddie racing bikes have to be, well, proddie. And you never know, i still want to win that euro mono championship. But i'm open to suggestions. Initially it sounds like a daft idea, but the more i think about it, the more it kind of makes sense. Remember, it has to be realistic. 1. concept - you know, wheel at the front, another at the back, engine in the middle somewhere. material, motor blah blah blah - this can easily be discussed on a forum, via email etc, with words and scribbling. 2. basic design - this could be fag packets, pictures and so on. someone could do some CAD packaging and layouts 3. detail design - CAD - various people could get stuck into different areas, powertrain, or chassis or whatever 4. prototypes - pretty sure someone on here could CAM it, and maybe make some stuff 5. testing - dynoing, EFI, chassis testing, logging, tyre testing, all interesting stuff 6. rider - well my brother is the obvious choice, but we could use anyone 7. styling, paintjob, graphics, marketing, and all that side of it - never got stuck into this really, and i think from dragging in sponsorship, this is the most important 8. running it - who wants to be Jeremy 9. making mk2? Anyway, i think you get what i am banging on about. The idea is, instead of wondering if this size widget would be a good idea, you get to ask a couple of hundred people first. So, to get the ball rolling, my justification for it being a supermono is: 1. we have previous, and i think the euro champ is achievable. 2. you can do what you like 3. we ain't never going to be able to afford to make a proper gp bike, so this will have to do, and even if we did have enough money, we wouldn't qualify anyway! 4. we can't 'make' a proddie bike If someone can think of a better class, i'm all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Sounds like a good plan, the other options would be a Moto3 or Moto2 chassis. Moto2 because Power train is cheap and easily available for testing purposes at least. you would be competing against the best in the buisness, so you know wether you've got your sums right if you are competetive. There is a Market to sell more bikes More marketing potential if you want to go down the sponsored rsce team route. Against Moto2 Cost of competing, even at national level. I would be interested in getting involved, though I'm a bit more old skool, and prefer doing stuff with a pencil and drawing board and manual machines. Mainly becase thats what I have. Duncan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 is there somewhere to race moto2 in the uk? Definitely a market for moto2 chassis (compared to supermono). if moto2 is control engine, then that makes the job half as big straight away. Are funny front ends allowed? edit add, is moto3 a 250cc single? potentially shove a motorcross motor in an rs125 chassis and make it an engine project - billet cylinder head, that kind of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I'm sure you're allowed funny front ends in Moto2, is that the route you were thinking of going down? if so cool. No british championship, but there are numerous classes it could run in, the only National Moto2 championship is the Spanish at the momment. Moto3 is 250 singles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spannerman Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I think they call it crowd sourcing, or some such bollocks. A silly idea has been rattling about in my head for a few months. Just for fun, let us pretend we are all going to design and build and run a racing bike, from scratch. A forum bike. There is enough people on here with interesting ideas that something quite good just might come of it, you never know. Obviously i would want to do a supermono, cos thats what i know, and proddie racing bikes have to be, well, proddie. And you never know, i still want to win that euro mono championship. But i'm open to suggestions. Initially it sounds like a daft idea, but the more i think about it, the more it kind of makes sense. Remember, it has to be realistic. 1. concept - you know, wheel at the front, another at the back, engine in the middle somewhere. material, motor blah blah blah - this can easily be discussed on a forum, via email etc, with words and scribbling. 2. basic design - this could be fag packets, pictures and so on. someone could do some CAD packaging and layouts 3. detail design - CAD - various people could get stuck into different areas, powertrain, or chassis or whatever 4. prototypes - pretty sure someone on here could CAM it, and maybe make some stuff 5. testing - dynoing, EFI, chassis testing, logging, tyre testing, all interesting stuff 6. rider - well my brother is the obvious choice, but we could use anyone 7. styling, paintjob, graphics, marketing, and all that side of it - never got stuck into this really, and i think from dragging in sponsorship, this is the most important 8. running it - who wants to be Jeremy 9. making mk2? Anyway, i think you get what i am banging on about. The idea is, instead of wondering if this size widget would be a good idea, you get to ask a couple of hundred people first. So, to get the ball rolling, my justification for it being a supermono is: 1. we have previous, and i think the euro champ is achievable. 2. you can do what you like 3. we ain't never going to be able to afford to make a proper gp bike, so this will have to do, and even if we did have enough money, we wouldn't qualify anyway! 4. we can't 'make' a proddie bike If someone can think of a better class, i'm all ears. do you work for ducati and if so get your own fucking ideas for a race bike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 arf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 So, moto2. frame: steel, ally or carbon? i say probably steel cos it is easiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I agree tubular steel would be easiest, 4130 cro-moly? Though it seams that unless you use Aluminium you don't stand a chance. If you go for a Hossack/Fior or other style FFE, billet Alloy construction might be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hossack looks like the best one imo. imagine a CBR600 that had a hossack front end, but looked like a Vyrus.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I like your thinking. I intend to build a hossack front ended bike in the nearish future , more out of curiousity, than a conviction it will be better than a conventionally suspended bike. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why it would be better than tele forks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I know Mick Burge who raced a hossack 350lc formula 2 with CRMC and he told me it was amazing, particularly on the brakes. He used to beat Lee Gourley on it apparently. When pressed he couldn't give me specifics though, and i don't think he really got right into the knickers of the setup. For exmaple i never saw him try different dampers, or even springs. I think my bro is a lot more analytical, and can come in and say things like - 0.5 harder on the rear spring please - and then goes faster... Mick lobbed a xbr500 motor in it and raced in supermono and managed to qualify on pole the first time he ever rode it in the pissing rain at brands - against the likes of Mark Lawes and my brother. And i dont think he even had wets on. It never did any good in the dry though. He had a new frame made to fit the xbr motor out of mild steel, (using the proper hossack suspension arms) and the whole bike was still silly light. Another mate has ridden a new tesi round brands and he said it was silly much you can take the piss on the brakes. I like the idea of having a normal 'shock' as your front suspension unit, really easy to change springs, and fairly easy to get revalved. And if you use a proper place like Penske or nitron they give you a damper dyno readout. i dont know of anyone that can provide that for forks in the uk. Hi and low speed compression is easy, changing linkage ratios fairly easy, anti or prodive easy. I think it has a lot going for it. Packaging the shock might be tricky, it's in the way of the airbox/intake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy sie Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 well chaps i have done fram mods for a few years ,and have always wanted to make a full frame,so if some one can do the cnc parts ,we can do the sheet ali parts ,so i offer to weld the frame up,and we can make the swing arm aswell to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdunc Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 My only concern with a Hossack front end would be tha fact that tyres are designed around conventional telescopic forks, and we won't know if thats a problem until we try it. Other wise I'm sold. Nitron do a really neat little shock designed for Formula 3 cars, which would help with packaging, thoúgh I'm not sure if it would have enough strock in it's standard form. I have access to a shock Dyno and I guess suspension smith could give some clues on where to start with valving and spring rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 anyone know: how much travel is typical at the front? 100mm? what is typical travel at the rear? 100mm? what is a typical shock travel? 50mm? what is a typical lever ratio at the rear? 2:1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I like the idea of having a normal 'shock' as your front suspension unit, really easy to change springs, and fairly easy to get revalved. And if you use a proper place like Penske or nitron they give you a damper dyno readout. i dont know of anyone that can provide that for forks in the uk. Hi and low speed compression is easy, changing linkage ratios fairly easy, anti or prodive easy. I think it has a lot going for it. Packaging the shock might be tricky, it's in the way of the airbox/intake. Using a shock, even a top shelf one cost next to nothing compared to what you'd have to spend to get the same quality in a tele fork. Mint idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Using a shock, even a top shelf one cost next to nothing compared to what you'd have to spend to get the same quality in a tele fork. Mint idea. you are going to struggle to spend much more than a grand on a nice shock, whereas decent forks are many thousands! we can make the structure, and modify it. imagine if we had dropped 5k on some forks, only to either bend them, or decide we really should have got slightly less stiff ones or whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayla Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 is there somewhere to race moto2 in the uk? Definitely a market for moto2 chassis (compared to supermono). if moto2 is control engine, then that makes the job half as big straight away. Are funny front ends allowed? edit add, is moto3 a 250cc single? potentially shove a motorcross motor in an rs125 chassis and make it an engine project - billet cylinder head, that kind of thing I think you could race a moto2 bike in Powerbikes, or A.N. Other 'open' class. Tigcraft's cromoly moto2 chassis is here- http://www.tigcraft.com/moto2.html and with a trellis frame, would it be possible to duct air around the front shock and into the airbox? Supermonos are pretty cool though, and I do like the 'anything goes' thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suspensionsmith Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 anyone know: how much travel is typical at the front? 100mm? what is typical travel at the rear? 100mm? what is a typical shock travel? 50mm? what is a typical lever ratio at the rear? 2:1? Neat Idea chaps In my experience around 120mm front travel is ideal and the same at the rear and most shocks are best at a leverage ratio of around 2:1 Thus a typical stroke is around 60mm I personaly like Ohlins,although would make sense for you guys to buy localy made if you can...supporting local industry and all that in these hard times...if you dont use it you lose it kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 hossack tm this is that hossack - was a 350lc, this time with a TM engine. It now has a home made steel frame with the original hossack uprights and suspension. what about putting to shock to one side, or maybe with a linkage? (for the air) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suspensionsmith Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 like the idea of the hossack/fior front...I put my hand up on some input on the geometry design of that one and someone more qualified can do the structural design side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 whenever there is a forks v. FFE discussion, lots of people state that a pro of FFE is the wheelbase (can) remain constant under braking. er - so what? lack of this doesnt seem to bother anyone in motogp currently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 ps - i assume dorna or whoever release a packaging model of the engine to allow the frame manufacturers to design the frame? anyone got one, or know where to get one? reverse engineering the whole (outside shape) motor is going to be a massive ball ache. Kayla - do you happen to know if the tigcraft is running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayla Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Kayla - do you happen to know if the tigcraft is running? No, I only found it by mistake to be honest. I was looking at the possibility of running my FZR4/6 in Thunderbikes and stumbled across it that way. I've got no idea if there's an actual bike or if it's just a concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suspensionsmith Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 whenever there is a forks v. FFE discussion, lots of people state that a pro of FFE is the wheelbase (can) remain constant under braking. er - so what? lack of this doesnt seem to bother anyone in motogp currently! The reason for that is the wheelpath is closer to verticle with benefit to less prodive and maybe some antidive,the more constant wheelbase is a byproduct of this and its one of the reasons why FFE's brake so well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayons Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Unfortunately I have nothing of any merit to contribute. But my copy of "The racing Motorcycle" has just arrived and I'll try keep up at the back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Aprilia V4 engine, bolt together ally side plates, Hossack front end, CBR style rear end doing away with the need for a shock top mount, self supporting seat unit. good call on the cbr swinger arrangement. If we are pretending to do moto2, we have to use a cbr motor though. V4 Aprilia Hossack that looks like a Vyrus... mmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Does anyone know the geometry the Britten front end used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 i think it is effectively a hossack/fior with a carbon 'fork' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Here is one I made earlier. Sorry, conventional forks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter_jamie Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 is it legal? good effort btw! have you found a definitive set of rules, and did you get a 3D package model of the motor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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