SamB Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 This month's PB has got me thinking about lightweight batteries. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject but wonder if I can use one of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 I've not found PB in the shops yet, what sort of cash are the ones they feature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamB Posted April 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 The ones in the mag are A123 Systems LiFePO4 cells - they state a cost of roughly double that of a new battery...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 I've got some of those on test, and was looking into a bulk buy so I could produce the packs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamB Posted April 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I'll buy one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipringle Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I'll buy one! So would a mate of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Sweet! Should be ready in a few weeks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heds954 Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I've got some of those on test, and was looking into a bulk buy so I could produce the packs... Hmm, I may be interested in this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egg on Leggs Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Hmm, I may be interested in this +1' potential of more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imdying Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 www.toolking.com Order the DC9280. It's a Dewalt 28v battery made up of the A123 2300mAh cells (8 of them) (I think it said LiIon on the site, ignore that). A simple rewire gives you a 4.6AH 12V battery that will run most things and weigh less than a kilo. I brought two and they cost me a mere $45USD each. Mint. I think the CCA equivalent is about 240A. Scary given the size of them. I'll use the spare one to make 2 more to power the NSR and RGV (no starters, so a 4 cell 2.3AH battery should be fine). Will save about 2kg on an RGV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid Posted April 10, 2010 Report Share Posted April 10, 2010 Rc car battery packs work great too in total loss systems dont use lipo in a charging system unless they have a overcharge undercharge temp protection there lethal if they go off !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morepower Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Been using a Super B battery on the Icon bike.. It is lightweight... BUT it needs to be warm for some reason... A cold day the battery struggles to turn the engine over but after a few tries the discharge seems to warm it up enough to turn the bike over enought to start.. BUT a few times it has gone flat before it has started the bike....ALSO the battery seems to go flat when stood for more than a few days. Have done some investigation to see if we have a power drain when the bike is turned off but have found nothing... Love the idea of the battery but the practial side has put me off. Plus it has to be charged up with its own charger not a normal optimate or normal charger. The Super B claim.. This new battery replaces the existing lead/acid battery, and is based on lithium-ion cells which can supply up to 120 Amps of peak current for 10 seconds, or 70 Amps continuously. But unless the bike is kept indoors or just taken off charge so it is warm, it seems it that is struggles to match the claims. http://www.super-b.com/superb/super_B_4600.html I would love to see a light weight battery that will work with a charging system and a 'leccy boot... But I think it is one or the other at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OW01racer Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 I too have been fervently trying to source dry-cells that might suit my race bike. The weight advantages are massive, and so when I first came across them I was rightly excited. I first had the idea myself a few years ago, and was put-off the idea by my father who is an electrician. He doubted that dry-cells (at least for now) could handle the massive current draw of a starter motor on a high compression engine. The large lead plates in a conventional lead acid battery can supply big current, and quickly without heating up exessively. So what is the point in saving 2KG, then the tannoy says "final call, race 1 to the assembly area now" and you press the button and nothing happens. My race bike is not an easy push-start. So if someone out there HAS found lightweight cells that work with a starter motor & charging system Im sure we would all love to hear from them! Essy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzisti57 Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Well there's this page, the guy seems to have used this on a tuned TLR ok . . . I'm interested in giving it a try, but I think I'd keep a fully charged lead acid battery in the van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morepower Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 Seems with the correct batteries current draw is not a problem... The Super B will easily start a 1400cc Suzuki GSX engine... Just needs to be freshly charged and/or warm. Power drain is also a fact of life and can be anything from a few days to less than 48 hours.... For race use fine use a charger and you are OK.... But road use... forget it unless you use the bike everyday and have a warm garage from september to may. I do think it will be solved but I also think the weight will go up too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Gixxer Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 I have been running 4 A123 cells on my GSXR750 K1 road bike for the last few days, without problems. It's been around 5-10 degres here. Need to look into how to charge them... Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyline Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 There's another forum thread on building the batteries below: http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268406 I'll add my name on the list if there is gonna be a bulk buy...I'd be interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjohnson Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 I'm interested in the battery kit also. I've mailed PB to ask for more details of the assembly kit and where to source it, but havent had a reply yet. Can this alternative battery set up really be as good as this months article claims?? I dont want to shell out the extra dosh for this weight saving option and find its knackered in 5 months because the alarm on the bike has drained it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scwirral Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 Seems this would be a great chance to organise a forum group buy? I used to run a Nissan 200sx turbo, and we would get amazing discounts on kit when 10 or 20 people ordered together. Of course, the advantage we had on that forum that everyone had one of two different models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heds954 Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 I mentioned about group buys on the old .Com and got a very indifferent response, some crap about it being too impractical as there are a many and varied types of bikes to cover... meh! I still think it's a good idea, get some of the trade folk involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imdying Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 You do not need a group buy. Have a look at the DC9280 on toolking.com. I heard yesterday that they're on special again, about USD$35 IIRC. That gets you 8 of the 3.3v 2300maH A123 LiFePO4 cells. That will run any sports bike. That r1 forum discussion thread has all the info you need. This is the same as you'll get from the likes of CarbonSpeed for USD$200. Do not listen to anyone who says that they doubt something that size could do the job, this is very new tech and 99.999% of people have never even heard of this type. You do not want anything LiIon based; that type gets unhappy and sets on fire (laptops and cellphones exploding, that's Lithium Ion). The LiFePO4 cells will run and charge off of your bike fine, there are plenty of us using them. Heck, check out Durbahn, he runs the entire bike total loss off of them. There are not many and varied types you will need... anything with a big cylinder size motor or a high geared starter (big twins, 675, 08- CVR1000RR) you run an 8 cell. Everything else is 4 cell. So, either 1 DC9280, or half of one. Punk in Pumps is correct, plenty of knock off crap around. Just buy the Dewalt DC9280 and pillage it, don't bother with the cheap crap on the egay. Given that you can run the average bike off of a 4 cell, you get two batteries for less than a decent standard battery costs. One other thing, they lose only 1% of there charge a year (if left unused)... come back to your bike after 6 months of winter, and it goes 1st push of the button. No more battery tenders etc... great if you're lucky to have a number of bikes etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjohnson Posted April 15, 2010 Report Share Posted April 15, 2010 You do not need a group buy. Have a look at the DC9280 on toolking.com. I heard yesterday that they're on special again, about USD$35 IIRC. That gets you 8 of the 3.3v 2300maH A123 LiFePO4 cells. That will run any sports bike. That r1 forum discussion thread has all the info you need. This is the same as you'll get from the likes of CarbonSpeed for USD$200. £51.98 delivered from the USA if you buy from toolking.com. Pretty good value. Does anyone know anymore about the assembly kit that the PB mag article refers to to bolt them all together?? I dont mind soldering them up but prefer the idea of the assembly kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imdying Posted April 16, 2010 Report Share Posted April 16, 2010 Well, the cells come in a top and bottom tray (which sits inside the Dewalt battery case), so you can use that (just gut out the springs and bits and pieces, it'll all be obvious). Or you could make some new trays (if you're after something other than a 2x4 arrangement) out of some hard plastic (say... a bread board) with a big drill bit and a hacksaw. Personally we've just taped them up, and then covered them in large (expensive ) heat shrink, then another layer of heat shrink at 90 degrees, but with a bead of silicon to make them water resistant. You could go nuts and make a carbon fibre tub for them, but you're just adding weight. Use a 100W or bigger soldering iron. It's a piece of cake to do, but you'll need to get enough heat into the tabs quickly, without putting too much heat into the cells themselves. No bother, but a little iron isn't up to the job. We use a flat tipped (about 5/16" wide) 100W soldering gun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morepower Posted April 16, 2010 Report Share Posted April 16, 2010 OK.... I have just ordered these... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-NEW-DEWALT-DC9280-...=item19b88b0ef0 If these work better than the Super B fitted to the Icon bike I will be so happy. The Super B seems like a good idea and does save a shed load of weight but always seems to be flat. Will make up a battery for the P3 Suzuki which is run once in a blue moon and the R1 which gets used more often as my usual bike then I may make up a pack for the 'Prilla Project just to save weight.. If it all works then I can buy some more and make one up for the Icon bike too... I will look into getting a CNC plastic case made to and if they work will let you know how much if you all want to make your own using my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaighn80 Posted April 16, 2010 Report Share Posted April 16, 2010 theres a company that imports high power batteries called dogs bollocks i cant find them on google but they do batteries with 1500cca for starting chinook helicopters and im sure they do lightweight 'race' batteries that would be man enough to spin over a bike with ease. im at my work shop tommorrow i'll get their number and give them a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Gixxer Posted April 17, 2010 Report Share Posted April 17, 2010 Here is the bracket i made doing a lunchbreak at work on a milling machine. The "connecters" are made of 1mm galvaniced plate and it's bolted together using 5mm treaded rod. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted April 17, 2010 Report Share Posted April 17, 2010 If these work better than the Super B fitted to the Icon bike I will be so happy. The Super B seems like a good idea and does save a shed load of weight but always seems to be flat. Isn't the Super B battery also made up of A123 cells? I was looking at getting one of them but if they're no good I won't bother. They are certainly ot cheap at £150! Can you elaborate on your experience with the Super B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morepower Posted April 17, 2010 Report Share Posted April 17, 2010 Isn't the Super B battery also made up of A123 cells? I was looking at getting one of them but if they're no good I won't bother. They are certainly ot cheap at £150! Can you elaborate on your experience with the Super B? OK.. The Super B battery was not the smaller one we use the largest 4600 version that cost £280.00. The bike has no alarm on it and is running a full Motec M400 ecu. The bike has had 2 batteries on it now. The first one was totally flat when I got the bike from the previous builder. I was told if the cells have been totally discharged they may not get a full charge again so we sent it back and got a new one. This was fully charged using the correct Super B supplied charger too. The bike would always struggle to start the bike when cold. It used to turn over slowly for the first few attempts and IF the battery had a full charge it would after 4 or 5 attempts speed up and start as it should... But it seems after a few days of being stood the battery would be flat. Now the bike has not been using an alarm so there is no drain via the alarm system. The bike was not fitted with lights or anything that could drain the battery either. We have checked drain in using a multi meter and even tried the flash test and cannot find any voltage drain but still the battery is flat. Now I know the bike had not been used on anger or even covered any miles and at low rpm the battery is not getting fully recharged after a start, SO the bike always has the charger attached after the bike has been run. Still after a day or two the battery is either very low or flat. Just recharged the bike the other day and it has been left to see how long it will keep a charge. As good as it sounds from the info supplied it has really been a dissapointment. Ben Morris who fitted the Motec system has said some of the race teams who have been using the batteries have had problems starting in the morning too and the batteries need to be warm or just taken off charge to start on the button. I wanted them to be a good product but the problems we have had really have put me off them for road bike use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2moto Posted April 18, 2010 Report Share Posted April 18, 2010 The 4600 battery, AFAIK, is just two rows of A123 cells in parallel resulting in a capacity of 4600 mAh. No idea why they would go flat on their own, although I'd guess it has something to do with the built-in cell balancer circuit. Any such circuit will put a small drain on the battery, although it should not be as much as you've experienced. As you say for the cost of them plus the charger which also very expensive, you'd expect better. To me, if you build a battery from well selected A123 cells and use a charger that has a cell balancer circuit in it for periodic battery maintenance, you'd solve the battery drain problem, and a massively reduced cost. That's what I am going to do, anyway. Those 28V Dewalt batteries presumably have 8 cells in them, which will make batteries for two race bikes. We'll see how it works out. I'll keep the fire extinguisher handy just in case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vfr4 Posted April 18, 2010 Report Share Posted April 18, 2010 A couple of helpful links - if I wasn't a total clutz with all things electronic I'd have tried it this winter myself http://www.zxforums.com/forums/zx-6r-forum...-battery-2.html http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599316 uk site with a how to and pics http://www.yamahar1.co.uk/wiki/index.php?t...tweight_battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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