Brakes

[Harvey Mushman]

I want to improve the brakes on my 07 ER-6N (non ABS). Its done a little over 7000 miles so it doesn't need new discs or pads yet and as it came equipped with drilled wave style discs as standard will changing the discs for an aftermarket brand make that much difference anyway?

Nobody does an alternative caliper kit to swap the standard 2 piston jobs to 4 pots or bigger but I don't want to go down that route anyway. It would be costly and arguably overkill. I'm just looking for a bit more bite and power, or at least the feeling of it. Is a radial master cylinder the answer? Braking (of wavey disc fame) do a 19mm Radial m/c kit for my bike but I'm not sure if I need a 19mm one or infact what the standard one is anyway, and does a uprated brake m/c increase stress on other components like the calipers or brake lines (I have HEL lines fitted)?

Oh and before I get any wise ass comments, I am aware the ER is essentially just a commuter/beginners bike but I love mine and have no plans to ever get rid of it. I'd rather just improve it gradually for my needs so I can continue to ride the wheels off it and surprise riders of so called faster bikes. Truth be told and its actually a really good bike, just don't tell anyone as I make out, its 90% me and 10% the bike.

[-=JK=-]

I'd rather just improve it gradually for my needs so I can continue to ride the wheels off it and surprise riders of so called faster bikes.

been reading the 1000cc thread then?

might want to try experimenting with different compound pads.....once adhesion is restored (heed the "other" Speedie Sie thread ).

[speedy sie]

yarp dont fuck around with pads in this weather,i tell ye

[David W]

Braided hoses and a decent master cylinder will do the trick. Standard M/Cyls are cheap rubbish regardless of the claims.

[will#224]

What ever Farquhar uses would be your winning combo i imagine

[lorenzo]

To suss out what size m/c you've got on there at the moment, have a look underneath it. You'll usually find it'll have something like a number (14, 16, 19 etc, indicating the bore in mm) or a fraction (indicating the size in fractions of an inch).

The problem is that with twin pot sliding calipers* you're always going to have an initial lack of bite, it's an issue inherent in the design. Some pads will perhaps get around this, I've found ferodo to be quite bitey, but it's always going to be playing catch up with a floating disc/fixed caliper set-up. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actualy braking power, it's more to do with the initial feel that it affects.

*I'm assuming when you say twin pot calipers it's a sliding set-up, like on an SV for example. I don't actually know what they are on an ER6, but I bet it's a pair of tokico sliding calipers, like you'd get on a bandit 6, SV, GSXF etc etc.

[Liamo]

better tyres and better front suspension will also allow you to brake harder with confidence. Also, break out the angle grinder and hack off absolutly everything not nessessary in order to shave some weight.

Then turbo it.

HTH.

[gurninman]

I'd be surprised if the master cylinder is any bigger than 16mm bore, TBH, and fitting a larger bore on will not give more power - the reverse is true.

It would be worth trying an aftermarket master cylinder though, with the correct bore - it probably won't make the brakes any better but you'll most likely get better feel.OE discs are usually pretty good, so I wouldn't worry too much about those... but it *would* be worth trying different pads.

[Doug_R1]

It's a funny question, you already know the answers but don't want to do them. Fit a radial m/c, stainless hose, and get a decent caliper, Harrison Billet should be able to come up with one that fits,or find an oem caliper and get an adaptor made up to fit.

[Harvey Mushman]

Thanks for a well thought out reply as always Lorenzo. What you have said is spot on. Yes the calipers are a 2 piston sliding design and you're correct the brakes don't actually lack power, it is more to do with bite and feel. The feel as standard and even after fitting Hel lines with new fluid is just not confidence inspiring. The brakes have never failed to pull me up but they feel like they might, which is the problem and which I suspected wouldn't be remedied by splashing out on new discs and pads or swapping calipers although I do plan to try different discs and pads when the originals wear out. The combination of what you've said along with gurninman's reply would lead me to think a radial m/c might well be the answer.

Without looking at the bike but via some google detective work, I believe the bike came equipped with a 14mm m/c, but all the aftermarket manufacturers seem to recommend a 19mm design for bikes with 2 caliper front brake systems and the smaller 16mm only for single caliper equipped bikes like supermotos so it looks like I'll go for a 19mm one and see what happens. Checking out pics of Ryan Farquhar's ER-6f race bike only confirms my opinions on the brakes as well as what you guys say, as he ran standard calipers and discs with Goodridge braided lines this season. I can't tell if he fitted a different m/c but that's irrelevant anyway as he may like the "feel" of the brakes as they are, but I personally don't.

[will#224]

I think Farquhar runs a zx6r radial master cylinder. IMO a 19mm radial cylinder will give you an extremely wooden feeling at the lever. I would guess the zx6r m/c is something nearer 16mm.

[chrisexup]

Without looking at the bike but via some google detective work, I believe the bike came equipped with a 14mm m/c, but all the aftermarket manufacturers seem to recommend a 19mm design for bikes with 2 caliper front brake systems and the smaller 16mm only for single caliper equipped bikes like supermotos so it looks like I'll go for a 19mm one and see what happens.

Most twin caliper systems have to push eight pistons out; don't the sliding pin jobbies just push four pistons out, against opposed fixed pads?

as has already been said, a bigger bore m/cylinder will give you less power and a firmer lever. Does the lever feel like it has too much travel/too soft? A bigger m/cylinder will have less travel with a firmer feel but will take more effort to get the same braking pressure.

[lorenzo]

Most twin caliper systems have to push eight pistons out; don't the sliding pin jobbies just push four pistons out, against opposed fixed pads?

as has already been said, a bigger bore m/cylinder will give you less power and a firmer lever. Does the lever feel like it has too much travel/too soft? A bigger m/cylinder will have less travel with a firmer feel but will take more effort to get the same braking pressure.

Yep, twin sliding calipers is a funny one: You're only pushing 4 pistons, as you would on a single caliper on a supermoto etc, but you're pushing against 2 discs.

I'd take a look, make sure you've got a 14mm m/c, and then perhaps got up to something like a 16mm as it'll give you a slightly firmer lever, although the ultimate braking force will be slightly less. In my own opinion, which you can all chose to disregard as I'm a dick at times, I'd prefer a bit more feel over sheer force, as half of the time, certainly in road riding, you won't get anywhere near the limits of your brakes, but that initial bit of grab is the thing that makes you have confidence in your brakes. That's the reason I ditched the 6 pots on the 7r and the srad; the initial bite's really soggy, despite them actually being capable of pulling you up plenty quick enough.

I sold speedy sie a radial m/c off an 08 zx6r the other day, drop him a line and see what its bore is, but be aware that a radial m/c is often tricky to fit as it sticks out a good 3cms further than a normal one and will probably hit your clocks. They also sell for a fair bit more on ebay, so any failed experiments may turn out to be costly.

[blow_away]

If you are looking for better bite and feel, I would leave the calipers and master cylinder as they are, especially as you have already fitted HEL lines. If you are still using OE pads you could try some organic pads instead, as these contribute most to the feel of the brakes. I've got some (frighteningly expensive) Brembo ones to try on my bike, I'll let you know how I get on.

[kwakbiker]

Sorta agree with most comments. My missus had an ER6N and i used to like thrapping it around as well so know the brakes arent bad. Try a simple change of pads, easiest and cheapest. Maybe some fresh fluid as well, all else fails get a second hand m/c from a zx6 or maybe a mille if you want a radial. If its just feel the pads should sort it IMO

[Weety]

I remember back in the day being chuffed with the performance upgrade of fitting sintered EBC pads to my SV650 which have sliding 2 pots. Lots of bite and they get more powerful as they get hotter. Pretty cheap too.

I got the same benefits fitting Brembo aftermarket SC compound pads last year to my Superduke, just the affect was X10 (as was the price probably).

[TKDMitch]

You need too read the article in the new PB which goes through fitting new pads, then new calipers, then new M/C, all datalogged with braking distances. There are some surprising results.

MItch

[SeXV]

I've got a nissin radial M/C for sale from a 636 in the for sale thread if you're interested.

Agreed with the above post about brembo SC pads, much much better than EBC HH pads.

[Harvey Mushman]

Yeah got the mag yesterday and couldn't get to page 112 quick enough. I still think a radial master cylinder would do the trick just a 16mm instead of 19mm example. I will try different pads but not until the originals need replacing.

Thanks for heads up on yours SeXV, but the reason I was looking at the Braking ones is they come with the mirror mounts built in. If I was converting to a track bike I'd of snapped your hand off.