tootall Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Been finding more bodged/damaged/dodgy bits of wiring on the ZX7. Got to thinking, as this is going to be a dedicated trackbike there's a lot of unnecessary gubbins on there. This leads to thinking, well maybe I could run total loss system and junk the alternator and starter. If I'm going to do that then shouldn't be too hard to make up a simplified loom. Any opinions/advice/tips? Definately want to run keyless ignition anyway, and think I may be better off getting another loom rather than patching this one up as there appears to be a fair amount of crash damage/bodgery gone on, but I really quite fancy the whole race stylee total loss and lighweight/simple loom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonniB Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hi, It's quite easy if you take your time, first you should investigate if the zx7r had some form of safety/security circuit (usually by resistors in the switches or the cdi, e.g sidestand switch) because you will need to bypass or fool these, which normally is done with a resistor in the correct size. Then position all your electrical bits where you want them (think heat and masscentralisation, electrics don't like more than 65-70 degrees celsius), between the battery and the rest you will need a relay wired up to the killswitch, then a couple of fuses (one for fuelpump, one for cdi and instrumentation) and your off... Parts are found http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ here, do yourself a favour and buy new wire and new waterproof connectors (AMP superseal) Weightwise you will save quite a bit, I have made 4 looms for my bike in it's time, first a chopped original (800gr), then a mrk 1 custom road loom (740gr), a mrk 2 custom road loom (510gr) and now I converted it to a full on race bike with the latest custom race loom (130gr). The standard honda (NC30) road loom is 1500gr If you go tired of changing the battery then the charging circuit is very easy to piggyback onto the loom enjoy your work Ronni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemonkey Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hi, It's quite easy if you take your time, first you should investigate if the zx7r had some form of safety/security circuit (usually by resistors in the switches or the cdi, e.g sidestand switch) because you will need to bypass or fool these, which normally is done with a resistor in the correct size. Then position all your electrical bits where you want them (think heat and masscentralisation, electrics don't like more than 65-70 degrees celsius), between the battery and the rest you will need a relay wired up to the killswitch, then a couple of fuses (one for fuelpump, one for cdi and instrumentation) and your off... Parts are found http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ here, do yourself a favour and buy new wire and new waterproof connectors (AMP superseal) Weightwise you will save quite a bit, I have made 4 looms for my bike in it's time, first a chopped original (800gr), then a mrk 1 custom road loom (740gr), a mrk 2 custom road loom (510gr) and now I converted it to a full on race bike with the latest custom race loom (130gr). The standard honda (NC30) road loom is 1500gr If you go tired of changing the battery then the charging circuit is very easy to piggyback onto the loom enjoy your work Ronni While you are at it, why not fit a proper, mappable ignition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkn munky Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Race looms are dead easy to make up, if you can understand a haynes wireing diagram your be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran9r Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 I usually detest electrics, but if you take the project on, please show pics. Would like to do the same myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intra Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Just cut out everything you don't need. On my 400 I wired a toggle switch to turn the ignition on, a rocker switch to take the place of the run/off switch on the switchgear and a momentary push-button to kick the engine over. All you really need is wires from the battery to the starter, fuel pump relay, the regulator, the ignitor, the coils and your switches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 If you are going total loss then fit an Anderson connector set to allow you to change batteries easily and without the the risk of damaging the threads on the battery terminals and also wire in another Anderson connector in parallel and use a booster battery when starting the bike... ...I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find a few sets of Anderson connectors...I don't know...say, in a parcel you got from England a few months ago...... Oh, yes. and I wonder what it was that got me thinking 'bout running total loss then? Thought to myself, hmm reckon I've got enough wire in this box to make a nice new loom! However, if I'm going to do this I'll lose the starter too. Thanos on redmonkey said if I get a Dyna 2000 I can get away with 5 wires for the whole system. Nice. What size battery can I go down to then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will#224 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Oh, yes. and I wonder what it was that got me thinking 'bout running total loss then? Thought to myself, hmm reckon I've got enough wire in this box to make a nice new loom! However, if I'm going to do this I'll lose the starter too. Thanos on redmonkey said if I get a Dyna 2000 I can get away with 5 wires for the whole system. Nice. What size battery can I go down to then? What about one of those Durbahn sells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 What about one of those Durbahn sells? Waaaay out of budget. Thinking more house alarm battery, minimoto etc. Have no money to spend on this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich7/12 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hi there, I got inspiration for my loom on the track Gixer here: http://oldskoolsuzuki.info/patrick/project...711f/wiring.htm Edit: Pants, the link fails... here's where it lives: www.oldskoolsuzuki.info then click SevenEleven then on the right hand panel under Mr 7/11s projects there's 'rewiring the 7/11' It cleverly identifies which wires really need to be able to handle current and which don't, plus is a very neat and simple schematic to follow. I did the same other than tapping directly into the alternator - that was a step too far for me. As mine's a daylight MOT I got rid of the lighting circuit just leaving the brake light and the ignition. Good luck!!! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fontyyy Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 What size battery can I go down to then? Depends how long you want it to run for. And what the shortest gap is between races compared to how fast your charger charges unless you've got more than one battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hi there, I got inspiration for my loom on the track Gixer here: http://oldskoolsuzuki.info/patrick/project...711f/wiring.htm Edit: Pants, the link fails... here's where it lives: www.oldskoolsuzuki.info then click SevenEleven then on the right hand panel under Mr 7/11s projects there's 'rewiring the 7/11' It cleverly identifies which wires really need to be able to handle current and which don't, plus is a very neat and simple schematic to follow. I did the same other than tapping directly into the alternator - that was a step too far for me. As mine's a daylight MOT I got rid of the lighting circuit just leaving the brake light and the ignition. Good luck!!! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Im doing the same sort of thing at the minute. Try and get a wiring diagram to download off the internet, they are invaluable; KTM Standard Wiring (Yes my mate thinks its funny to call my bike a massey ferguson. The GENT.) After I had finished modding it This is what I am planning on doing to my bike this winter as Im just putting it on a daytime MOT. Its taken me about a week on microsoft paint to get it to this stage. I still need to tinker with it though and add the quickshifter in. It really helps to see what cables you actually need and which ones you dont, no guess work. Im lucky enough to be able to get all the bits I need from work, but heatshrink, solder etc is a must. DO NOT USE SCOTCHBLOCKS...ever. They are the work of the devil. A good multimeter is also worthwhile. Im going to get all my connectors from here - http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-...iconnectors.php. You could make do with the red or blue crimp connectors but I think they look shite. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heds954 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Waaaay out of budget. Thinking more house alarm battery, minimoto etc. Have no money to spend on this project. These are cheaper and if you can get them at trade can I have one? please? pretty please? oh go on? don't be mean *harumph!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 These are cheaper and if you can get them at trade can I have one? please? pretty please? oh go on? don't be mean *harumph!* Very nice but still waaaay out of budget. Literally have f all to spend on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurninman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Hi there, I got inspiration for my loom on the track Gixer here: http://oldskoolsuzuki.info/patrick/project...711f/wiring.htm Edit: Pants, the link fails... here's where it lives: www.oldskoolsuzuki.info then click SevenEleven then on the right hand panel under Mr 7/11s projects there's 'rewiring the 7/11' It cleverly identifies which wires really need to be able to handle current and which don't, plus is a very neat and simple schematic to follow. I did the same other than tapping directly into the alternator - that was a step too far for me. As mine's a daylight MOT I got rid of the lighting circuit just leaving the brake light and the ignition. Good luck!!! Rich Beat me to it - I was going to post a link to that very page. I used that diagram to redo the loom on my Slingy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coose Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 On the ZX it'd be very simple, being on carbs. The best way would be to pick up another stock loom (mainly for the OEM connectors) and butcher that, armed with a soldering iron, a bit of heatshrink and a few rolls of self-amalgamating tape. Let me know what year it is and I'll see if I can find a wiring diagram on the t'interweb to re-jig for you. Regarding the battery size, if you're doing away with the starter you could probably go down to a battery a quarter of the capacity. To be on the safe side, you could always buy two so that you can keep one fully-charged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 On the ZX it'd be very simple, being on carbs. The best way would be to pick up another stock loom (mainly for the OEM connectors) and butcher that, armed with a soldering iron, a bit of heatshrink and a few rolls of self-amalgamating tape. Let me know what year it is and I'll see if I can find a wiring diagram on the t'interweb to re-jig for you. Regarding the battery size, if you're doing away with the starter you could probably go down to a battery a quarter of the capacity. To be on the safe side, you could always buy two so that you can keep one fully-charged. Its a '98. Not sure wether to go through with it at the mo or not. Pretty sure how to do it but would be good to see it on a diagram. Just not 100% on the benefits/hassle ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coose Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Its a '98. Not sure wether to go through with it at the mo or not. Pretty sure how to do it but would be good to see it on a diagram. Just not 100% on the benefits/hassle ratio. It's not masses of hassle - I wired a friend's R1 kitcar in a weekend a couple of months ago. This meant taking a standard '03 loom and extending it to pick up all electrical bits and bobs, including wiring the dash (along with clock and switch back-lighting), hazard lights, fog light and the rest of the muck you need on a car to get through the SVA test. What it does save is lots of wieght - not so much from the wiring but from tuther bits. Alternator (must weigh a ton on a ZX), starter motor, big ord battery, starter solenoid, blah blah blah. I think you know this already though! Let me know if you need a diagram knocking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coose Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Don't use solder on it's own to make the mechanical and electrical connections on your loom. Soldering removes the ability of the strands of the conductor to move relative to each other and stress relieve. The joint will eventually, particularly on big single, fracture due to the vibrations. You won't find soldered joints on bespoke race looms for cars or bikes due to the risk of failure, This is why I suggested butchering a stock loom so that you can keep the OEM connectors. You can then leave long tails on the end of the connectors, join the wires using a bell-hanger joint and solder along the length of the bare joint. Then, heatshrink and bundle the wires, wrapping with self-amalgamating tape. That way you end up with a secure, well-supported joint. I have wired various vehicles in this manner and have never had a failure, and is the way that I would always recommend. Failing that, take a regular un-insulated cable crimp connector and cut the spade connection off and use the cable crimp section to join the conductors together and then heatshrink over the top. But make sure that the cables are clean, and then apply a bit of vaseline prior to gently heatshrinking (this is fun as the vaseline will inevitably run out of the joint - just try to minimise the loss). I've seen far too many crimped joints corrode..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Raychem (and others) make heatshrink sleeves that contain solder as well - you heat them with a hot air gun and the solder melts as the sleeve shrinks, plus they've got a handy little stripe of paint in them that runs when the joint is made properly. they are aproved for use in the aircraft and rail industry in safety critical applications and are good bits of kit. See Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buster Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 To re-iterate... These solder heatshrink connectors are aproved as a fit and forget repair for rolling stock safety critical train wiring (so things like emergency brakes, door interlock etc) in the UK and the railway industry took its' lead from the aircraft and defence industry. By the same token, ordinary soldered connections insulated with heatshrink are not - because of the conerns about their long term relaibility. Have a question about these, hopefully you can answer.... I hadn't realised their approved uses, obviously they must be very reliable and trusted due to the consequences of them not being in both fields. My concern is that a physical/mechanical joint is only as good as the process used to make that connection, therefore, what is the approved method of using these connectors? Heat gun? Set to what temperature? Joint exposed to heat for how long? Type and spec of wiring they're approved for etc. If any of these or other variables are different it can have a huge effect on the robustness of the joint and its longevity. Over to you MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootall Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Have a question about these, hopefully you can answer.... I hadn't realised their approved uses, obviously they must be very reliable and trusted due to the consequences of them not being in both fields. My concern is that a physical/mechanical joint is only as good as the process used to make that connection, therefore, what is the approved method of using these connectors? Heat gun? Set to what temperature? Joint exposed to heat for how long? Type and spec of wiring they're approved for etc. If any of these or other variables are different it can have a huge effect on the robustness of the joint and its longevity. Over to you MM See here, scroll down for method of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buster Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The instructions I've seen for their use in the railway industry don't go down to that level of detail - much like crimping instructions in the industry, they prefer not to instruct how to use them in detail and instead rely on the training and competency management systems to esnure that the operator carrying out the task is trained and assesed as competent to do so. the thinking being is that you create a 'haynes manual' anyone can think that they'l have a go. For crimping the industry uses a supplier like flyte spares to carry out training (under a verified scheme) and then the trained individuals are managed under a competency management system. For a person to be deemd competent to use them proffessionaly on the railway they'd be expected to have done a recognised aprentichsip, demonstrate an understanding of the consequences of fucking it up etc See here, scroll down for method of use. Thanks for the replies, as well as being trained as an electronics engineer and doing extensive soldering, also many years ago I did a mechanical crimping course and this is what has led me to delve a bit deeper as there are so many variables that can make the difference between a good joint and a poor/bad/dangerous joint. One thing not mentioned in the fusion solder instructions is the way in which to handle the copper wire, natural oils and sweat from the fingers contribute to bad joints ether immediately or over time by a degrading action, this applies to both soldered and mechanical joints. Obviously if being used in industry, best practice should be applied, tools used that require it should be calibrated, test pieces made and tested etc. I am less skeptical when I have more information, may have to invest in some when I get home and try them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buster Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Couldn't agree more - when i was project managing a wiring modification program I insisted, much to the annoyance of my managers and the chagrin of the manpower agencies, that each and every 'electrical technician' sent to me by the agency had to undergo a trade test. This included me watching do some simple crimping and looming.... I'd say about 95% of them failed because the first thing they did (after failing to check that the insulation stripper was in calibration and in good nick - I occaionally put one in that I'd losened the jaws on) after stripping the insulation was to twist the conductor strands!!!! NEXT! Why you sneaky bugger, no wonder I didn't get the ... nothing to see here. Top tip of the day, if you insist on twisting the wires, use mechanical wire strippers to break the insulation and then turn the loose end as you remove it from the wire, helps when crimping as splayed wires not fitting in the crimp are a no-no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemonkey Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 One thing not mentioned in the fusion solder instructions is the way in which to handle the copper wire, natural oils and sweat from the fingers contribute to bad joints ether immediately or over time by a degrading action, this applies to both soldered and mechanical joints. Oooh, nice tip, makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Don't use solder on it's own to make the mechanical and electrical connections on your loom. Soldering removes the ability of the strands of the conductor to move relative to each other and stress relieve. The joint will eventually, particularly on big single, fracture due to the vibrations. You won't find soldered joints on bespoke race looms for cars or bikes due to the risk of failure, Do you mean just solder, or soldering and the heatshrink? Obviously all joints would be heatshrinked aswell. Certainly food for thought though. Hopefully all soldering will be kept to a minimum as it will be a whole new loom. You are aware that, working to the letter of the law, if you have a brake light you need ALL lights fitted and working to pass an MOT? I have a VERY friendly MOT tester who has been very kind to me over the years lol Cheers for the helpfull info. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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