R1 Ram Air box

[rndnick]

R1 5JJ (year 2000) Gonna buy the QB carbon Ram Air box, on QB's site they do a 'matching' jet kit for it. Anyone have any experience if this is better than a K&N or a Factory Pro jet kit? Before I buy a new one, anyone have a 2nd hand one for sale?

[MonkeyJim]

R1 5JJ (year 2000) Gonna buy the QB carbon Ram Air box, on QB's site they do a 'matching' jet kit for it. Anyone have any experience if this is better than a K&N or a Factory Pro jet kit? Before I buy a new one, anyone have a 2nd hand one for sale?

No direct experience, which makes me fully qualified to give you my advice

I looked at getting one when I was putting the full akrapovic system on my 4xv model a couple of years ago.

I took advice from Chris at Road & Track Dyno in Aylesbury, who suggested I steered clear. In his experience, they are apparently notoriously difficult to set up properly, as running them up on a dyno does not simulate the 'forced air' element. A big fan in front of the bike just doesn't cut it, apparently.

he reckoned that unless you were racing or just doing trackdays, where you are at higher speeds / revs for longer than on the road, the [relatively small] gain to be had at the top end wasn't worth the consequential loss of bottom / mid-range

As Chris has been nothing but straight up honest with me on the couple of occasions I've used him, and he did a superb job of setting up my carbs, I took his advice.

Also, I use my R1 mostly on the road with a handful of trackdays a year, I didn't want to have to rev the tits off it everywhere for an extra 10bhp at peak.

I did some research around the various R1 forums at the time [http://yzf-r1forum.net is a good one without all the american shite] and the general consensus agreed with what dyno-man Chris had said.

That's not to say there were some individuals, a very small minority, who had successfully fitted a ram-air box [either QB or Attack] with good results. On the whole though it seemed to be a lot of pain for very little gain.

You pays yer money and you takes your choice

edited to add; sorry I have just read what I wrote and I did not mean to piss on your chips. If you want one, get one.

In my fantasy land where the R1 has become a pure track bike, I'd have ram-air on mine too.

[rndnick]

edited to add; sorry I have just read what I wrote and I did not mean to piss on your chips. If you want one, get one.

I dont have gazillions of squids to spend on getting it setup so that might be good advice. I am however, after doing something to my R1, I have my beadies on a Dynojet kit, an ignition advancer and some velocity stacks. (Maybe as well as / instead of the Ram air).

[MonkeyJim]

I dont have gazillions of squids to spend on getting it setup so that might be good advice. I am however, after doing something to my R1, I have my beadies on a Dynojet kit, an ignition advancer and some velocity stacks. (Maybe as well as / instead of the Ram air).

well apparently that's the biggest problem with the ram-air on the early R1's. It can be made to work, but it takes a lot of work to make it work IYSWIM

have you got a full system on it yet? Now that *is* money well spent IMHO

I put a full akra system on mine, picked it up off ebay for a couple of hundred and it went from 135-ish [oe downpipes, Harris can] at peak to 142. It also picked up 16 hosses in the midrange. Thankyouverymuchindeed. That's with a carb re-jet and a race air filter.

Brucey bonus was it weighed a ton less than the standard system. Well, quite a few kilos at least!

I also junked the exup servo to save a few grams by fitting a pointlessly expensive 'servo eliminator'. As it said 'race use only' it was worth every penny.

HTH

[rndnick]

What would we think on these?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAMAHA-R1-00-01-MICR...id=p3286.c0.m14

[MonkeyJim]

What would we think on these?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAMAHA-R1-00-01-MICR...id=p3286.c0.m14

mmmmm.... shiny!

I thought Micron had gone out of business, but their website still seems to be active & current, so I'm sure you could get a race can to fit those, Micron or not.

however you may wish to check here http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/carbs.htm

Ivan* is apparently somewhat of a guru, especially with early R1's, and does not recommend the use of a 4-2-1 system on the early models. The micron pipework appears to be 4-2-1, whereas my akrapovic is 4-1.

Whether that really makes that much difference, I do not know. What I can tell you is that with the full system on my 4xv, it is fluffy and unresponsive under 4k rpm. Do I care less? Non.

One difference in the exhaust systems between the 4xv and 5jj models is the AIS - does this stay in place or do you blank it off? I think Foo of this Parish experimented with that, and may be able to advise further...

[rndnick]

Do you run a jet kit on yours?

[MonkeyJim]

Do you run a jet kit on yours?

No, not as such. It was dynojetted by Chris @ Road & Track Dyno http://www.roadandtrack.co.uk/contact.html

But I seem to recall he didn't use a specific dynojet kit for the R1, he just used off-the-shelf parts. And a bloody good job he did too

Once it has cleared its throat at 4k, it makes a lovely full-fat 78 torques all the way from 6 to 10k. Peak power is 142 rwbhp at about 10,500.

he reckoned it was good for over 150 peak at the back wheel but I'd have to lose some mid-range to get that, something I was not prepared to do.

It may not seem much compared to the current litre bikes but it's got a fantastic delivery and plenty enough for me

[fran9r]

Ram air will always be difficult to set-up because you can't replicate road conditions without a few million quid's worth of wind tunnel. However, nearly all sportsbikes have some form of ram-air, so I can't see it being difficult (but I'm also not a dyno operator), specially if someone were to share their settings.

Olly's project R1 as shown completed in Superbike magazine had a QB carbon box, but was found to be restrictive (but he was at massive cc, cams, gas flow and FCRs) so they took the lid off. Which defeats the whole ram-air point really.

[will#224]

Nothing to do with the R1, i'll talk about the ram air on my zxr400 race bike. The standard air box was obviously really restrictive, through adding an F3 kit copy airbox that didn't fit or seal particularly well, with a rejet , no air filter and micron system i got 74rwhp. A healthy stock bike makes about 62 if your lucky.

So i guess if it makes good power stock? There might not be so many gains to be had through ram air alone.

I'm quite the novice in regards bikes really, only raced a couple of years but to me for a road/track bike i'd look at things to make it handle better and give that 'quick' feel. Lightweight sub frame, screen brace, decent suspenders, quick shifter, pipe, how about an ecu that was adjustable on the fly? Torque or power, fuel economy or screamer? Think a company called ignitech does a suitable ecu. I know nothing about the R1 really just thinking out loud as a joe blogs kinda guy.

[peter30]

Monkey! of this parish sold me a nice akra hit as well, brilliant mod, noise and power. Ivans kit I'm not so sure of, needed completely different jets than those supplied, the instructions were miles out on mixture screws as well(might be a US market v Euro spec). 15-44 sprockets are a good mod(-1 +1) and I may go +2 for the rear if I'm doing more track work. All up the bike is about 140 at the wheel, I'll be back at Steve Jordan's for another go to get it up another 5bhp or so, jetting and air filter should see that. Much more than this and I'm sure it would be expensive.

Bike is my everyday transport and will be doing 6 or so track days next year, as I enjoyed the first one so much.

If I was going to be serious about power, I'd not bother with the ram air, straight to racier cams(and expense).

[rndnick]

Thing is with exhaust, it took me ages to find 1 I actually liked, see here for the 1 I eventually went for. Having spoken to the manufacturer I would like to see about getting 1 for the other side as well. (Don't think I have ever seen that on an R1 before.) So I really dont see an Akra on the cards. (Or the bike for that matter!)

And back to the Ram Air box, surely, because alot of people are put off getting 1 because it's complex to set up is about as good a reason as any to get it!

[peter30]

I have a vague recollection that Foo had fitted a ram air box(although being old may mean I could have made this up). Anyway, system and decent dyno set up(ie jet change etc). Do the sprockets, ride it and surprise yourself! If that doesn't do it, take the steering damper off and live a little*

*May not be that sensible and all advice given may be affected by medication

[foo]

Peter30's recollection is bang on. I did attempt fitting a QB carbon Ram air box. Here's the tale:

The bike's a 2001 5JJ R1 with the air bleed system removed, and a Yoshi RS-3 full system fitted (EXUP removed). I bought the airbox second hand, so I didn't get the jet kit, and neither did I get the original set-up instructions (if any).

The first thing to note is that the airbox wasn't well made. There were voids in the fibreglass between the gel coat and the mat. More seriously, the holes for the carb rubbers weren't cut accurately, and it was the devil's own job to get the rubbers to fit. There was no chance that they'd seal.

The box didn't come with an air filter, or any means to fit one. I made one up from foam and air filter oil, and bent a wire mesh cage to hold it in place.

The float bowls need pressurising with the airbox, so I cut the two breather hoses and routed them into the airbox about an inch in front of the carbs. The airbox has no holes drilled for this, so you have to make your own.

Afterwards the thing wouldn't rev over about 7K. Eventually I concluded that the CV carb vacuum chamber also needed pressurising, so I connected the two breathers with a length of hose, and inserted a tee piece into the middle, and routed this into yet another hole I had to drill into the airbox. Afterwards, the bike would rev over 7K, but still didn't run right.

It was at this point I lost patience with it, and ripped it out, replacing it with a standard airbox running a K&N washable filter. I've upped the jetting to 137.5/140¹ by a process of trial and error, and the bike runs fine with this setup. I've not had it dynoed yet, as I stupidly fell off it about three weeks ago, and now need to spend on repairs.

In my opinion, the ram air box was never made to be used with CV carbs or an air filter. In other words, it really is a race-only item. It's possible to adapt it to run a filter and CV carbs, but I wasn't able to make it work properly. A lot of the setup advice floating around is for Dynojet kits, and involved aralditing up pilot holes, and drilling slides, neither of which I was prepared to do.

Personally, if you're looking for more power, I think you'd be better off spending your time and money on other things. A full system helps with the top end, as it ditches the EXUP valve. Beyond that, you could fit an ignition advance (+2 or +4 degrees), fit adjustable cam sprockets² and fiddle with the cam timing, and fit hotter cams. You can also up the compression slightly by going with a thinner head gasket³. I've done none of these things, as I got fed up with working on the bike, and decided I wanted to ride it a bit.

[1] Allens Performance.

[2] Debben Performance.

[3] Cometic gaskets.

[Doug_R1]

Why is that Serpent system for the 00/01 only? I though the 98-01 models were largely identical, apart from bodywork.

[rndnick]

Thanks Foo, I have been reading on r1-forum.com about this as well, although they dont mention the fit & finish problems that you have mentioned, they do say it is difficult to setup and that you need to use a thing called a 'Flow Control'. Any ideas what this is? I think the idea here is a non-starter, but wanted to check all available info first.

[MonkeyJim]

Peter30's recollection is bang on. I did attempt fitting a QB carbon Ram air box. Here's the tale:

excellent report there Foo. A+

Why is that Serpent system for the 00/01 only? I though the 98-01 models were largely identical, apart from bodywork.

the models are largely similar, though not identical. One of the differences is the exhaust.

On the 00-01 5JJ model there is an additional 'Air Induction System' AIS or somesuch, which uses reed valves on the exhaust outlets to draw in fresh air to reduce emissions. Or whatever.

As a result, the headers are not interchangeable between the models. the end can & exup valve are all identical though, save as to the appearance of the can - it was titanium rather than carbon.

there were also changes to the carbs & gearbox - apparently to make the power delivery slightly less savage than the 4xv model - plus some other very minor changes to suspension and other bits.

[foo]

On the 00-01 5JJ model there is an additional 'Air Induction System' AIS or somesuch, which uses reed valves on the exhaust outlets to draw in fresh air to reduce emissions. Or whatever.

Monkey!'s right. The AIS was fitted only to the 5JJ model, and is a transitional thing between the 4XV and the fuel injected 5PW that came out in 2002. It's an air bleed system from the induction side to the exhaust headers, with the purpose of burning off excess fuel in the exhaust system -- it's purely there for emissions control.

If you fit aftermarket pipes, and don't remove it, you get a lot of popping and banging in the exhaust system --which some people like, but I don't. The reed valve system and the associated pipework is an ugly lump of junk fitted to the front of the crankcases, near the oil filter.

To remove it, you have to disconnect it from the air box, and plug up the four bleed ports on the exhaust side. I used M10 stainless hex grub screws, and tapped the ports with an M10 thread. It seems to have worked OK.

@rndnick: As far as I can make out the flow control is some sort of auxiliary fuel regulation device. I've never seen them for sale on this side of the Atlantic. There are a number of versions of set-up instructions for the airbox, but as far as I can tell, none of them are absolutely complete. I'm sure it's possible to get the set-up to work, but in the end I decided it wasn't worth the effort, and went back to a standard airbox with a high flow filter, and simply upped the jetting a bit.

As I haven't dynoed it, I can't say what it makes, but I do know that it's easy to ride on the road, and doesn't have too much in the way of flat spots. Like Monkey! said, the lower end of the rev range gets a bit softer without the EXUP, but once you're on the move it all works fine.

[Doug_R1]

Looking at the Yamaha service manual it appears the ais feeds directly into the exhaust ports in the cylinder head, so the exhaust system should be identical between 4xv and 5jj.

[rndnick]

I have posted a suitably worded question on the complexities of setting up the ram airbox to QB Carbon. It was sent at 10.30 this morning, I'm quite interested to see how & IF they reply!

[Stephenrc45]

I've personally fitted and set up many of these boxes. Never had any problems. Much improved bottom end as well and middle with good overall increases at the top.

A few internal mods need to be made to the carbs and indeed the carb vents need to vent into the air box but apart from that quite simple

[foo]

I've personally fitted and set up many of these boxes. Never had any problems. Much improved bottom end as well and middle with good overall increases at the top.

A few internal mods need to be made to the carbs and indeed the carb vents need to vent into the air box but apart from that quite simple

Do go on...

I was never able to find a definitive guide to setting one up. I got as far as working out that the vents needed to vent into the airbox, but I had no idea what needed doing to make the carbs work properly.

[rndnick]

I've personally fitted and set up many of these boxes. Never had any problems. Much improved bottom end as well and middle with good overall increases at the top.

A few internal mods need to be made to the carbs and indeed the carb vents need to vent into the air box but apart from that quite simple

What sort of cost would we be looking at for this?

[rndnick]

Hey guys, have had an email reply from QB Carbon regarding the Ram Airbox;

This the text is sent them;

Hi,

I am interested in purchasing a Ram Airbox for my Year 2000 R1, however, a few reservations, as having spoken to a few guys on a forum who have tried fitting one (the fibreglass one) they seem to suggest that it dosent come with an Air filter, needs holes drilling in the box for vacumn tubes from the carbs, the rubbers don't seal correctly around the carbs (is it meant to work with the standard carbs?) and is generally difficult to setup. (I do apprecaite of course, that the box this guy had may have been a crap copy of one of yours). I notice you do a jet kit for the Airbox, so obviously would need that as well.

After all this, I would still like to buy one, but would appreciate a little reassuarance from yourselves.

Thanks in advance,

[rndnick]

And this was the reply;

Hello Nick,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

It would sound as though these people have indeed bought copy ones. Our air boxes are always supplied with air filters , and they are also drilled and fitted with alloy inserts to connect the vacuum pipes to.

We must have sold over 500 of these and I have never had one back due to poor fitting, the carbon and glass fibre ones come out of the same mould so there is no difference except appearance and weight.

With regards to setting up , you do need to get the bike on a dyno to get it sorted properly , you will also find a small loss of power at the lower end of the rev scale but an impressive gain at the top end, if you like to potter about at low revs then they are not the thing to use.

I am unable to get the jet kits now , but you can get around this with a dyno jet kit.

I love forums, everybody's an expert !.

Regards Ian @ World of QB carbon.

Just thought I'd let you know!

[foo]

Just thought I'd let you know!

In that case, the one I have is definitely a copy, and a poor one at that. It sounds like the QB carbon ones don't suffer from the problems I encountered trying to fit it. It explains quite a lot -- sorry for steering you in the wrong direction regarding QB carbon, as it clearly wasn't one of theirs.

[Stephenrc45]

Block the main air corrector.

Decrease float hight by 1mm

Use the stock needle

Main jet will be somewhere in the range of 142-144 with a average race can.

I'll get some graphs off the dyno when I'm back at work.

[fran9r]

Do dynojet make a ram air jet kit for the R1 then?

[Stephenrc45]

No they don't. Only a normal one. Though the stock needles tend to work better.

[fran9r]

No they don't. Only a normal one. Though the stock needles tend to work better.

Hmm so the mains will be out for a ram air install...and the needles will be better until they wear the needle jet oval.

I'd go for the airbox and proper jets in the right size myself, even if that dyno time and a bag of jets. Or screw the CVs and get some FCRs.