MonkeyJim Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 in the quest for R1 track nirvana I have been sourcing a spare set of wheels to run some sticky tyres for trackdays next year. I've already got hold of a spare rear wheel, and was on the hunt for a front when this came up on egay yesterday: 'Tis a Dymag front wheel for an early [carbed] R6 with PFM cast iron discs. So I bought it! I'm getting quite moist at the prospect. it's due to arrive some time next week, maybe even in time for Oulton but I don't want to count my chickens here are the questions to which I need answers, per-lease: [1] I know that the early [5EB] model R6 front wheel is the same as the early [4XV/5JJ] carbed model R1 - though the rear wheels are different. The PFM website lists the same part no's for their discs for the R1 and R6 of the same age, so no problems there either. It should be a straight swap and I think the front wheel spindle is the same. What is different are the wheel spacers, so I will need to get some from Dymag. The seller thinks the spacers are captive, rather than the OE ones which are easily removable. Will the wheel have to go back to Dymag to change the spacers? [also see [2] below] [2] the wheel is white. I will probably want it painted black, just like the Rolling Stones, to match the rear wheel. Anyone know what Dymag charge for this? [3] what pads do peeps recommend for the PFM cast iron discs? At the moment I'm running the OE pads in the R1 - think they are made by Nissin - and they work bloody well on the standard discs on road and track. would they be ok to swap between stainless and cast iron discs? [4] Bonus question: track day tyres. I have been a big fan of Diablo Corsa III's for the last few years. Great on the road & good enough [for me] to go fast on the track. But a hairy moment at Donington has got me wanting something stickier. But still road legal for riding to/from trackdays. what are all the kids using these days? Racetecs? SuperCorsas? Thanks my lovelies!
rossm Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 Tyres, if only using on dry days and mostly track use the new Bridgestone 003's are the puppies
2 smokes 4 ever Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 Captive spacers just locate in bigger ID bearings They should just pull out no problem contact Dymag for advise on painting. Magnesium can be funny stuff contact PFM for advise on suitable pads for their Cast iron discs Pads designed for std S/S discs don't work on Cast Iron discs as well as a apd designed for cast iron tyres - well that depends on how fast you are! any of latest sports tyres (BT016 etc) are good. Me I use BT010 in the fast groups without grip issues More grip then try BT002/003 More grip will then be into slicks
tootall Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 Bendix fast road/track pads work really well with PFM cast discs, I had them on my gsxr750. Tyres are such a personal choice. Supercorsas are 'kin ace and have a similar feel about them to the diablos as do the racetecs, just much grippier and a bit quicker to turn in. If you're going for either the supercorsas or racetecs dont forget you've got "track" or "street" versions. With the street version you dont have a choice of compound. Spent most of this year useing dunlop d209 gp racers (not the "street" ones) and now I'm used to them I love them.
MonkeyJim Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Posted October 23, 2008 Cheers for the various replies! just been speaking to Mike at Dymag, what a nice friendly helpful chap. he's confirmed their wheel is the same for the R1 and R6 of the same vintage, and reckons it should fit straight in using the standard R1 spacers. If not, he says to let them know & should be able to sort any problems out for me. They charge £92 plus VAT for a full refurb, which includes stripping back, testing, undercoat, primer & re-paint, with new bearings etc. There's a nominal surcharge of £5-10 for some colours. Seems very reasonable really! Can't wait to get hold of the wheel now!! I will try PFM about the pads and see what they say. Talk about timing, I just had new pads fitted to the front and rear last Saturday, as the ones that were in there were getting borderline, and I didn't think they'd last through another trackday. Doh! Oh well, changing the pads over wouldn't be the end of the world
MonkeyJim Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Posted October 23, 2008 Before you send them to Dymag you might want to have a rad of this thread.. http://pbmagforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...=dymag&st=0 Dymag are very helpful and top folks but when they test a wheel they are more rigorous then perhaps others would be in that, to protect their name and reputation, they render any suspect wheel unusable by drilling holes in it... Not saying this is a bad thing, just needs considering when they can be tested and painted/refurbed elsewhere without that risk. Thanks, that thread had passed me by. Perhaps I should have read that first before I bought it... Doh! and double doh! well the seller guarantees that the wheel is in tip-top condition.. he would, of course! but I spoke to him on the phone before buying it and he seemed genuine enough. We'll see when it turns up. In light of the above I am tempted to send it straight off to Dymag for them to test it. If it fails, I will be speaking to matey about getting my money back! anyway let's hope it doesn't come to that. I paid £150 for the wheel including the discs, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if the worst happens, I could probably get most of that back on the discs!
DocJohn Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 Captive spacers just locate in bigger ID bearings They should just pull out no problem I just fitted an SP1 dymag in the 'blade - email Dymag for advice on spacers; they were very helpful Spacers are captive, but will hammer out easily with an appropriate implement (I used a 19mm socket on an extension up the inside of the axel) -John
Coose Posted October 24, 2008 Report Posted October 24, 2008 I used EBC HH pads on my '94 TZ250 on Brembo and Yamaha cast iron discs and they were superb!
MonkeyJim Posted October 27, 2008 Author Report Posted October 27, 2008 Thanks Strappy, and everyone else who has commented. Having looked at the PFM website in a bit more detail, I found this: Recommended Brake Pads The following pads are suitable for use with our DI Sports discs, Compounds are subject to intended use: Performance Friction (all compounds), Ferodo (Platinum and CP911,CP211), SBS (Dual Carbon), Bendix (C-Matrix) The OE Nissin pads don't feature in that list, but I'll see what I can find out about them. from a bit of research on various R1 forums, it seems that Performance Friction [95 compound] are a very popular choice, regardless of whether the brake discs are steel or iron. I'm hoping the wheel will be arriving today, but even if it does I doubt I'll have time to get it on the bike for Oulton, but we'll see
MonkeyJim Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 I'm hoping the wheel will be arriving today, but even if it does I doubt I'll have time to get it on the bike for Oulton, but we'll see wooooo hoooooo well the wheel arrived late yesterday all seems to be present and correct, as far as I can tell from a quick visual inspection it appears straight & true, with no damage apart from a few marks from tyre changes, which are to expected. comparing it to the pics on Dymag's website it appears to be a cast-mag rather than a classic My plan is to try and 'dry fit' to the R1 to check fitting & spacers etc, then take it down to my tyre fitters for them to check the balance & maybe sling a tyre on it so I can try it in the bike. the PFM iron discs are funny though. I think they are what PB referred to as 'old school floaters' in the GSXR600 upgrade feature. There's no bobbins holding the disc onto the carrier, instead it seems to use what looks like a giant circlip [sorry for the crappo description] and the discs really rattle on the carriers. Errrr.... is this normal?
scwirral Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 Top Ebaying, Monkey. Your bike is gonna be even more cooooool next season with newly painted 1/2Dyamag wheels!
roadracer Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 What size discs are those? if they are 310's using performance friction pads they might be a bit of a handful(no pun intended) and generally the higher friction discs are used in a smaller diameter disc set-like 290mm iron discs with 99 compound PFC pads will still be stronger than 310 steel discs+95 compound pads, but with less gyro forces on the front end so it's cheap steering sweetener. Don't R1's use 330 mm discs?
MonkeyJim Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 Yes - that's how PFM mount their discs to the carrier... MilleMille - thanks. Never seen discs mounted like that before, and the rattle was a bit disconcerting. What size discs are those? if they are 310's using performance friction pads they might be a bit of a handful(no pun intended) and generally the higher friction discs are used in a smaller diameter disc set-like 290mm iron discs with 99 compound PFC pads will still be stronger than 310 steel discs+95 compound pads, but with less gyro forces on the front end so it's cheap steering sweetener. Don't R1's use 330 mm discs? I don't know what the standard R1 discs are, diameter wise. http://www.pfmbrakes.com/shop.php?man=15&mod=123 the part numbers for the R1 and R6 are the same. These PFM discs on the Dymag wheel are direct replacements for the early [carbed] R1/R6 models, they use the original 'blue spot' calipers, as in the pics at the top of the thread. I do not know yet if different pads will be required, I am checking on the OE pads, but I suspect some Performance Friction 95's will soon be finding their way in there to grab the discs. Just to be sure, you understand. PFM also offer a full upgrade kit which uses their own calipers on a narrow track disc.... maybe next year
roadracer Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 If you're doing it for outright "holy shit" power get some 99 compound pads, they are the newest pad designed to bite stronger for the smaller discs and work much better at colder temps too. Could be fun
roadracer Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 Honestly on the 310mm steel discs the PFC99's are enough to give you a hernia. You know when Rossi dangles his leg off the inside peg under brakes? I do that involuntarily, like hitting a brick wall I tells ya. On iron discs, the guy better have a harness made up to support his weight at 3.2G under brakes
MonkeyJim Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 I'm guessing you mean 96 or 01 compound, rather than 99? Can't find any mention of 99. With or without Flake from http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/cycles.htm 95 Compound Similar characteristics to 93, but specifically developed to cope with stainless steel discs. This compound is the most widely used for bikes and can be used on both stainless and iron discs. Provides the same advantages as 93; excellent bite, good controllability, virtually fade free, excellent wear rate, very good release. 95 compound is the choice of champions, having been used by Troy Bayliss and John Reynolds to win the World and British Superbike Championships respectively. 96 Compound This is the latest race compound. Similar to 95 but possesses slightly higher initial bite with higher cold and wet bite performance. Slight sacrifice in longevity compared to 01. This compound is ideal for smaller diameter discs such as the Brembo 290mm race disc where brake effectiveness is not compromised in return for improved turn-in and handling. Can be used both on Stainless and iron discs. 01 Compound This is one of the newest generation and the most advanced race compounds in the PFC range. Slightly higher bite and torque for the first 2/3’s of the stop when compared to 93 and 95 compound. At the end of the stop, 01 compound has less torque scatter for improved modulation with excellent release and a flatter torque curve. Very easy on the discs with very low wear. Can be used both on Stainless and iron discs. From what it says above I'd be tempted to try the 96 or 01, but this is all new to me. Everyone on a.n.other R1 forum raves about the 95 compound; others don't seem to get a mention but I will have another look...
rossm Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 Have you priced the PF pad prices yet? I did once and went for a different make:-( Maybe I'll bite the bullet next time ad get a set
MonkeyJim Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 Have you priced the PF pad prices yet? I did once and went for a different make:-( Maybe I'll bite the bullet next time ad get a set yeah, they're not cheap.... but I guess the old saying is true: Performance has to be paid for [arf] cheapest I've found so far is a guy on ebay, 2 pairs of PF95 pads for £70 plus a few quid P&P. Could be worse...
rossm Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 That's not at all too bad, Mmmm got me thinking now
MonkeyJim Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 That's not at all too bad, Mmmm got me thinking now well Ross, if it's any help - and it was to me - I just had a chat with Wal Saunders, the man himself of PFM brakes. What a very nice, helpful and funny guy. I asked about brake pads & he suggested the OE yamaha pads [which are Nissins] are not really suitable for use with their ductile iron discs. He said they would probably work ok on the road, but I wouldn't get the best out of the discs, and pad wear rate would be high; with heavy track use the pads might overheat. For what I want, fast road & track use [rather than out & out track use and/or racing] he recommended either the Ferodo CP211 or any of the Performance Friction range, though he said that the PF 95 compound was particularly good, and one of the best. He recommended I rub the discs down thoroughly with emery paper before using new pads, to remove any traces of build up from previous use, as they may have been a different brand. I will post up some pics and report on performance once I get the new pads and the wheel fitted Looks like the PF95's are a winner, so I have just ordered some. From http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Trackdaytyres
roadracer Posted October 29, 2008 Report Posted October 29, 2008 Err, yes I may well have been on about the 96's and just had 99 on the brain Don't be surprised when you get them but they are about 1/2 the thickness of normal pads, don't know why but they are. The 95 pads aren't completely useless when cold, but they are THE best race pads you can get on 310 discs, let me tell you. I've even heard of people who are sponsored by DP or sbs I think but still use the PFC 95's. Wowee.
MonkeyJim Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Posted October 29, 2008 The 95 pads aren't completely useless when cold/quote] what are they like in the snow? thanks for the tip-off over PF95 pad thickness. as for http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Trackdaytyres I had an email from them last night confirming my order had gone in yesterday's post. Now that is good service!
MonkeyJim Posted November 10, 2008 Author Report Posted November 10, 2008 Didn't get chance to get out on the bike at the weekend, partly due to domestic duties, and partly because of the weather. Did find time for a bit of a tinker in the garage. Here are the money shots new spare rear wheel fitted [original wheel is silver] with a part worn tyre I had knocking about, so I could get it balanced etc first. Then the Dymag front, with a new Corsa III fitted I didn't have any scales to check the weight difference, so had to settle for a 'wheel in each hand' comparison test. Not totally scientific, but both wheels had tyres and discs fitted, and just by hand you can tell the Dymag is noticeably lighter than the standard wheel. The Dymag and PFM's are a perfect fit. The Dymag's captive spacers are spot on, which is nice. hasn't been tried in anger on the road yet, as I haven't fitted the new brake pads for the PFM discs. That's the next job... close up of the Dymag and PFM brake disc loveliness
ronenige Posted November 10, 2008 Report Posted November 10, 2008 got pf pads in my '05 R1 and they are brill , not a lot of power when cold but after the first application they are lovely , the standard pads seem to reach a certain amount of er stoppageness but these seem to grip more and more so make sure you've got decent brake fluid in it
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